Author Topic: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?  (Read 6256 times)

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2012, 11:31:42 AM »
+6
I'm pretty sure 90% of this forum would suggest the first rule you posted in this response was actually the rule. I realize that it is not the rule, but that's how pretty much everyone states it.

Then you could tell those 90% that if that were the case, then you couldn't rescue a Lost Soul from a site with Son of God. And most of them would be like: "Oh. That makes sense."

Quote
How don't sites have an inherent protect ability? Game rule as stated grants them an inherent protect ability. There's no reason why that shouldn't extend to dominants (other than arbitrarily believing old language left over from Womens, which seems stupid seeing how much inconsistent language and poorly expressed rules we have from olden times still).

Because nothing has "inherent" special abilities of any kind. There are merely game rules that dictate how cards are played, and the game rule for sites simply says that a Hero must have access to a site in order to rescue a LS from the site. That's it. If sites had any sort of inherent protect ability, what would stop Iron Pan from giving access to all sites for all heroes?

Yes, old language/rules are often inconsistent and poorly expressed. But Sites have worked just fine since 1997 without any restriction on Son of God, so if that part of the old rules don't need to be changed, then they shouldn't be.

You know what Alec, I enjoy "grasping for straws" and arguing for obscure rulings and arguing against the status quo. I think it helps force people who pay attention to these sorts of threads to reexamine different rules and rulings and look at why some rules are the way they are. You, yourself, learned something in this thread by discovering that dominants and fortresses don't have brigades, which you apparently believed, considering how vehemently you argued that they did. Last time, in the Split Altar thread, we actually ended up uncovering a pretty huge inconsistency with the rules, and I'd call that a major victory, even if the Elders have refused to do anything about it. So if I want to argue for rulings like this, I'll do it, because it's certainly not doing any harm to the forum, and every once in a while some visible good comes of it. I'm sorry if it annoys you, but you're free to just ignore my posts if they really bother you so much you feel the need to argue with me half the time I post.

The problem with arguing points that you know are not going to make a difference (like this one--obviously SoG/NJ will be able to rescue from sites as they always have) is that your persistence necessitates involvement from those of us who are supposed to be ruling authorities, which takes our time away from other pursuits that may be more helpful to the community.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2012, 11:39:54 AM »
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The problem with arguing points that you know are not going to make a difference (like this one--obviously SoG/NJ will be able to rescue from sites as they always have) is that your persistence necessitates involvement from those of us who are supposed to be ruling authorities, which takes our time away from other pursuits that may be more helpful to the community.

Neither Alex and I believed we really had any kind of a legitimate argument until RDT responded and noted that he couldn't come up with a good reason beyond the status quo. At that point, I think our argument did gain some legitimacy for a while there. Your second post in this thread convinced me that we had no traction, but up to that point, the only argument we really had against us was, "Doms totally have brigades. Like, totally." Nobody in this thread asked for an Elder ruling (unless Alex did at some point and I missed it), but I apologize for wasting your time then.

I was stalling until I could find better evidence, although I didn't think that dominants had brigades I also didn't inherently think they didn't. I wasn't using something I knew was false I was using something that was flimsy but might have worked, I didn't believe it was going to but it was worth a shot. This is different from bringing up a resolved beaten to death issue that already has several rulings and a cult following.

Then if you don't have a substantial argument against an opinion you don't like, don't argue it. This is a message board, not a debate club. It's not as if all of the Elders would have gotten together and gone, "Great Scott! He's right!" and changed the rule if you waited 30 minutes to actually find a legitimate argument. That's talking just to make your voice heard.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2012, 11:46:29 AM »
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I do have have a substantial argument against it, sites only restrict heroes, you have no substantial argument for it yet you continue to argue it. Hi Pot, I'm Kettle nice to meet you.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2012, 11:52:09 AM »
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I do have have a substantial argument against it, sites only restrict heroes, you have no substantial argument for it yet you continue to argue it. Hi Pot, I'm Kettle nice to meet you.

I haven't argued for it since two Elders posted disagreeing with me. In fact, in my previous post, I specifically noted that Jordan's second post (which detailed exactly why the ruling worked, and did a better job of understanding our argument and explaining why it didn't work) had convinced me that there's no weight in our argument.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2012, 11:54:08 AM »
+1
I apologize for wasting your time then.

Don't worry, I waste plenty of my time all by myself on these forums. But I may not always be in the mood to procrastinate from my other responsibilities, and when that occurs, it's nice to be able to spend the time I do have addressing more pressing issues. Like how we can make sure to design a card from the new set that everyone complains about and still builds decks from anyway. Yeah, I remember when I suggested: "Hey, if we're reprinting Judges, I think Samuel could use a reprint!"  ::)
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2012, 11:56:15 AM »
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I apologize for wasting your time then.

Don't worry, I waste plenty of my time all by myself on these forums. But I may not always be in the mood to procrastinate from my other responsibilities, and when that occurs, it's nice to be able to spend the time I do have addressing more pressing issues. Like how we can make sure to design a card from the new set that everyone complains about and still builds decks from anyway. Yeah, I remember when I suggested: "Hey, if we're reprinting Judges, I think Samuel could use a reprint!"  ::)

Don't forget to make sure that such cards never actually win March Madness (Thad, Sam, etc).

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2012, 12:02:58 PM »
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Don't worry, we'll make him a Silver Hero that can be the cornerstone of a deck that The Strong Angel will fit in as an alternative win strategy. So clearly TSA will beat him in the Silver category.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2012, 12:05:19 PM »
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Nah, we have The Angel Under the Oak rocking March Madness this year. If he doesn't win, I'll be more than a little angry.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2012, 02:09:32 PM »
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Oh! Oh! Oh! Can we get a new card that will make Doubt super-playable and uberpowerful? I would love to see what you'd have to go through to make that happen...
Just one more thing...

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2012, 02:28:00 PM »
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That's something I haven't thought of.  With the new dom cap, Cactus can start printing new doms with little complaint.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline Maynid

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2012, 02:37:16 PM »
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Ok, point I haven't seen made yet....

From a biblical standpoint, does it even make sense that there would even be a site or person that the Son of God (Jesus) would have access to?  NT only and */4 only notwithstanding, it seems to make good sense anyway that SoG would have access to LS in sites, because who can withstand Him?

Chronic Apathy

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2012, 02:38:47 PM »
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Ok, point I haven't seen made yet....

From a biblical standpoint, does it even make sense that there would even be a site or person that the Son of God (Jesus) would have access to?  NT only and */4 only notwithstanding, it seems to make good sense anyway that SoG would have access to LS in sites, because who can withstand Him?

Altar of Ahaz can. Oh, and Lost Souls in your own territory. They can too.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2012, 02:41:17 PM »
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Prior to the new rules you could have made that argument, but now that you can't rescue your own LSs with SOG that argument is nerfed.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2012, 04:51:47 PM »
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Prior to the new rules you could have made that argument, but now that you can't rescue your own LSs with SOG that argument is nerfed.
Not really.  From a theology standpoint, it doesn't make ANY sense for there to be 2 Sons of God in a game, and yet virtually every game does (yours and mine).  The logical explanation is that your offensive side of the game and my offensive side of the game are like they are in different universes, and thus you can have a Son of God in your side of the game and so can I.

This same logic would indicate that it would make sense for my SoG to be able to rescue all LSs in your LoB (because those are the ones that are in His universe so to speak), while your Son of God could rescue all the LSs in my LoB (because those are the ones that are in His universe so to speak).

Of course we all know that the NT only and */4 only can NOT be rescued by SoG, but I just wanted to point out that Maynid's argument DOES have some logic behind it :)

Rawrlolsauce!

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2012, 04:53:54 PM »
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Son of God can change universes via Thievery of Judas. Like that really old serial of Doctor Who, Inferno.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 04:56:16 PM by Rawrlolsauce! »

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2012, 04:56:17 PM »
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your Son of God could rescue all the LSs in my LoB

No it can't, not until Rob prints a way to recur SoG.  ;)
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: SoG not as powerful?? can it be true?
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2012, 05:46:47 PM »
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Not really.  From a theology standpoint, it doesn't make ANY sense for there to be 2 Sons of God in a game, and yet virtually every game does (yours and mine).

Actually this does make perfect sense, it's not like the good sides are fighting each other (in general) so maybe at one point in time Jesus decides to save one lost soul for one side and later he decides to rescue another one for the other side, the really confusing part is why would he usurp a rescue from a hero (when you used it to rescue your own) not that he couldn't do it, but that it would be counterproductive.

Of course all of this is a moot point anyway since it is, after all, a game and occasionally illogical things happen in games.
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