Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: browarod on October 07, 2010, 05:23:52 PM
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1. When, precisely, can a site be added to battle?
2. Does adding a site to battle pass initiative?
3. Why exactly does the FBTN LS stop Hopper, Revealer, and any other Lost Souls that say "when you draw this card"?
4. Can you have multiple Curses active on Chorazin at the same time (such as if you used the "remove from a site" LS to remove and then put back a LS)?
5. Can Golgotha stop No Need for Spices after Spices is played?
Golgotha (Di)
Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn.
No Need for Spices (RA)
Special Ability: Negate evil immunity. Female N.T. Heroes ignore one evil brigade in battle.
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1. During battle.
2. Yes
3. Because it prevents them.
4. Yes
5. Yes
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1. During battle.
I was hoping for something a little more precise than that. I assume, for example, that you can't put a site into battle during the resolution of a card's ability. Are there any stipulations besides that?
2. Yes
Assuming I can add a site during my opponent's initiative, why would I forfeit my initiative by adding one during mine?
3. Because it prevents them.
But they're not in play til after they activate and resolve.
5. Yes
Why? Golgotha doesn't interrupt, and if I'm ignoring you then I ignore everything used by/on you as well.
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Any time during battle that you could play a Dominant.
Beats me. Perhaps you attacked, they blocked, it was mutual, and you realized you'd forgotten your Site.
At which point they're Negated.
Golgotha doesn't make anything be used on/by the Evil Characters, it just gives them CBIg status.
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Beats me. Perhaps you attacked, they blocked, it was mutual, and you realized you'd forgotten your Site.
I wasn't asking why I would choose to forfeit my initiative, I was asking why it was considered forfeiting my initiative. If it doesn't affect my opponent's initiative I don't see why it should affect mine.
Golgotha doesn't make anything be used on/by the Evil Characters, it just gives them CBIg status.
But if I've already walked around you, you gaining "can't be walked around" status doesn't undo the fact that I've already walked around you.
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1. You can add a(n unoccupied) site from your territory at any time you could play a dominant.
2. It shouldn't - initiative only determines who gets to play the next enhancement.
5. Golgotha looks like a protect. I don't think protects are retroactive, so the targets of Spices should still be ignored.
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Okay, let me ask the specific situation I'm thinking of in regards to sites and stuff.
I RA with a white female hero. My opponent blocks with Red Dragon with Golgotha out. I play Words to ITB, draw, and then play No Need for Spices. My opponent then places a crimson enhancement from his discard pile on Golgotha.
1. Does Golgotha prevent Spices even though it doesn't interrupt, doesn't negate, and doesn't prevent Spices itself?
2. If for some strange reason it does, the battle would then be stalemate (assume that my white hero plus the numbers on Words and Spices is enough to be surviving Red Dragon). Since I played the last enhancement (Spices) my opponent would have initiative to play something. He passes. Now, my understanding is that, if I also passes, the battle ends. With that in mind, I add Dragon Raid to battle and discard the enhancement on Golgotha, then I pass. Since adding sites to battle doesn't pass initiative, would the battle then end with me ignoring his Red Dragon and winning the battle? Or does the fact that Dragon Raid affected the battle outcome mean initiative DOES pass (probably to do with special initiative) and my opponent has initiative to put the same enhancement back on Golgotha?
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Or does the fact that Dragon Raid affected the battle outcome mean initiative DOES pass (probably to do with special initiative) and my opponent has initiative to put the same enhancement back on Golgotha?
If I'm wrong on the scenario about Spices, this would be why the EC would get initiative.
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i believe aggie is correct. golgotha is a protect. protects are not retroactive. nnfs will still ignore.
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i believe aggie is correct. golgotha is a protect. protects are not retroactive. nnfs will still ignore.
That's what I was thinking, and just wanted some confirmation. Thanks you two!
As for the Dragon Raid thing, could we still get an answer for that in general (not in response to Spices)? i.e.: Does Dragon Raid entering battle and emptying Golgotha create special initiative to the defender to play something/refill Golgotha?
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You don't need initiative to refill Golgotha. You can use it anytime you could play a dominant (during battle).
Emptying Golgotha would only give initiative to the EC if it created a situation where they would normally have initiative.
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so for instance...player A rescues with hero ignoring black. player B uses golgotha, places a black evil enh on golgotha. player A responds by putting dragonraid into battle, discarding the black enh on golgotha. player B can just put the same enhancement right back on golgotha, right?
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so for instance...player A rescues with hero ignoring black. player B uses golgotha, places a black evil enh on golgotha. player A responds by putting dragonraid into battle, discarding the black enh on golgotha. player B can just put the same enhancement right back on golgotha, right?
I believe so, and that's what I was afraid of. So much for me salvaging my TGT deck with Golgotha in wide use now :'(
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Golgotha is not a protect. Nowhere on the card does it say anything about protection. You have not "already walked around" anything until you get the soul, or are you arguing that you can attack and play Reuben's Torn Clothes, and I can't use Golgotha to get around your ignore?
Also, initiative is determined in a stalemate or mutual-destruction situation by who has played the last card. If it's either of those situations and you add DR, you played the last card, so your opponent gains initiative.
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"Cannot be" is understood to be protect language - "Cannot be negated" is special protect language - I believe that "Cannot be ignored" is similar in nature.
Now, that being said, I think it would be pretty lame if Golgotha didn't stop RTC and TGT, I'm pretty sure I mentioned this to Justin, and it's under discussion on the PT side of the boards.
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Cannot be
This is a protect ability.
seems pretty clear to me.
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"Cannot be" is not understood to be protect language when something significant comes after it. Is "Cannot be Prevented" a protect ability? It has Cannot Be in it, after all.
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Golgotha is not a protect.
If it's not a protect, then what IS it?
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Cannot be Ignored is a new kind of ability. Everyone understands what it does, but it's never really been deconstructed. I say "new" even though it premiered in Angel Wars because nobody really paid attention to it until now.
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Cannot be Ignored is a new kind of ability - but it uses protect language, so I'm pretty sure its a new form of protection.
And yes, Cannot be prevented is a form of protect ability - If you read the REG glossary, both the description of Cannot be (protect) and Cannot be (negate) use the same language of restricting targets.
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its just as much a 'significant' ability as capture, discard, conversion, etc etc. there is no reason whatsoever to believe 'cannot be ignored' does not follow suit and isnt a protect ability.
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You still have the issue of "retroactively" applying it. Cards either can or cannot be negated when played - if you're negated, you can't do anything to give yourself CBN status at that point. Does that come into play at any point for "Cannot be ignored"?
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I wouldn't think so.
Cannot be Ignored may be like a protect ability as Cannot be prevented is like a protect ability, but a card that says "Negate protect abilities on opponents' cards" would not Negate Golgotha.
It's obvious that Cannot be Ignored stops card from being ignored by sources of ignore active prior to gaining CBIg status, otherwise Golgotha would basically do nothing except recur stuff (Jacob+RTC, Prophet+Spiritual warfare, TGT, and Hero Ignore abilities all active before you can trigger Golgotha).
It makes the most sense to me that, since Ignore is an ongoing ability, it simply skips over any characters that can't be Ignored, and if a card gains CBIg at a later point, Ignore stops targeting it.
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Where exactly are you getting this "cannot be ignored is a separate ability" idea from? I've never seen anything about it in the REG, I've never had it ruled as that by judges, I've never even heard/seen anyone mention it before now. Why are you the only one that seems to know about it?
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agreed. there is a difference between how mechanics work and how we personally want them to work based purely on speculation. ignore is no different from the many other abilities in the game, which can be protected from.
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I think it's a way to get "cannot be ignored" to get around the "cannot be blocked by X" part of ignore (where X is whatever you're ignoring). Last I checked, that part didn't target the ECs (it targets the hero), so you can't be protected from it.
I don't have a problem with CBIg allowing an otherwise ignored EC to block, regardless of when the CBIg was activated. I don't think allowing a retroactive CBIg to effectively negate an ignore is the right way to handle it when the EC is already in battle.
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I don't have a problem with CBIg allowing an otherwise ignored EC to block, regardless of when the CBIg was activated. I don't think allowing a retroactive CBIg to effectively negate an ignore is the right way to handle it when the EC is already in battle.
^This. Golgotha would still be perfectly usable to allow your X-brigade EC to block a TGT hero that is trying to ignore, without it being even more OP as to indirectly negate cards like Spices.
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That's another possibility as to how "CBIg" works. All I know is that it is not just "protect from Ignore."
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RDT is right, even if you are ignoring someone and they become CBIg, they cannot be ignored in any way, any how, any why unless you get rid of Golgotha.
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Cannot be Ignored allows the EC to block in spite of an ability that would otherwise ignore him being active. This is similar to how cannot be negated allows an ability to activate in spite of an ability that would otherwise negate it being active.
However, if a character currently in battle is being ignored, giving it a cannot be ignored ability at that point does nothing, unless the current ignore is interrupted.
As to whether CBIg is a protect, I'm not entirely sure. I will let other elders comment on that one.
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The argument that an ignored character that gains the CBI ability can still be ignored makes no logical sense (which, I concede, is not always a priority in Redemption). It reminds me a little of the whole brouhaha over trying to indirectly negate CBN abilities, which led to the famous commandment "CBN means CBN." If a character "cannot be ignored," to turn around and say "yes, it can be ignored" creates a contradiction. It also leads to the commandments "CBI does not mean CBI."
This also creates questions for other cards. What if I play Hating the Light in battle, perhaps after drawing it with a SA? Can my EC still be ignored? Or apply to any other CBI enhancements (of which there are few now, but I could see more being made)? The whole argument seems IMO to be an attempt to prop up pre-block ignore by refusing to allow CBI cards to do what they were designed to do, one facet of which is to slow down pre-block ignore.
Hating the Light (Di)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on your human Evil Character: This Evil Character cannot be ignored and is protected from capture, conversion, and shuffle. • Play As: Place on your human Evil Character: This Evil Character cannot be ignored. Protect this Evil Character from capture, conversion, and shuffle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: John 3:20 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
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The whole argument seems IMO to be an attempt to prop up pre-block ignore by refusing to allow CBI cards to do what they were designed to do, one facet of which is to slow down pre-block ignore.
Actually, I think most of this is about using CBIg with characters already in battle. If you're already ignored in battle, CBIg shouldn't stop the ignore. Protects don't work like that. CBN/I/P doesn't work like that.
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I actually like the idea of Golgotha failing against ignores in battle. It allows you to block TGT or pre block ignore, which was the biggest complaint people were having ("You won't let me play cards!"). However, it doesn't totally kill the ignore strategy (RA with Jake + RTC, opponent uses Golgotha, blocks with a NT EC, I add D Raid to battle. You still get to play cards, I still get to ignore you. Win-win).
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Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
I add D Raid to battle.
Since you discard my EE on Golgotha, does that negate it's ability?
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No,
However, the new cards are using the ":" to mean "While this card remains" So if no EE is there, even if the ability was activated no one is CBIg
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It looks like a cost:effect ability to me. What are some other examples to point to your line of thinking?
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I don't have specific examples - I'm just basing that off of discussions we had during playtesting.
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Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability:Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha:N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
Cost:Effect
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i believe there was a discussion about this with herods treachery awhile back.
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Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability:Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha:N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
Cost:Effect
Regardless of what kind of ability it is, all abilities have a duration. Since this one doesn't specify (or if the colon is the specification), we assume the duration to be while the card remains.
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Why would we assume that? Cost/place card: Effect/cant be ignored. It doesnt say-
Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: While this card remains, N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
So after reading the Herod's Treachery post again...
i believe there was a discussion about this with herods treachery awhile back.
Herod’s Treachery (TP)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Herod. That Herod may use evil Enhancements regardless of brigade. You may discard this card to force X Heroes to withdraw from battle.
Man, I still dont agree with that ruling. but i didnt see relevence with the colon in that thread except the withdraw is dependent on the place ability. (still dont agree)
so, the cant be ignore is dependent upon the place ability? yes
That includes while the place card remains? not so sure
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Why would we assume that?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally would assume that because the only other option is indefinitely, and that would be even more broken. The protection from ignore starts with the placing of the Skull icon card, so it would seem to be logical that it would end with the removal of said Skull icon card.
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Since this one doesn't specify (or if the colon is the specification), we assume the duration to be while the card remains.
Since it doesnt say the duration, should we assume its until the end of the phase?
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Since it doesnt say the duration, should we assume its until the end of the phase?
The protection from ignore starts with the placing of the Skull icon card, so it would seem to be logical that it would end with the removal of said Skull icon card.
Considering all other place abilities end when the place card is removed, I don't see why this should be treated any differently.
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Why would we assume that? Cost/place card: Effect/cant be ignored. It doesnt say-
Golgotha (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: White • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: While this card remains, N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored. Return that card to its previous location at end of turn. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 27:33 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
So after reading the Herod's Treachery post again...
i believe there was a discussion about this with herods treachery awhile back.
Herod’s Treachery (TP)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on a Herod. That Herod may use evil Enhancements regardless of brigade. You may discard this card to force X Heroes to withdraw from battle.
Man, I still dont agree with that ruling. but i didnt see relevence with the colon in that thread except the withdraw is dependent on the place ability. (still dont agree)
so, the cant be ignore is dependent upon the place ability? yes
That includes while the place card remains? not so sure
mind linking us the thread? im fairly certain bryon or sir no commented that the card only worked while it remained, like all place cards do.
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Considering all other place abilities end when the place card is removed, I don't see why this should be treated any differently.
I agree with that.
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Sorry to bring this thread up after 3 days! So does cannot be ignored only stop pre-ignore and you can still be ignored in battle, or does it mean your character cannot be ignored no matter when you are trying to ignore it?
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Sorry to bring this thread up after 3 days! So does cannot be ignored only stop pre-ignore and you can still be ignored in battle, or does it mean your character cannot be ignored no matter when you are trying to ignore it?
Gabe ruled it as not being able to be ignored no matter what.
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Well since Gabe is only 1 elder that is not a definitive ruling. Can we get some elder input, even if the issues is still being debated?
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Well since Gabe is only 1 elder that is not a definitive ruling. Can we get some elder input, even if the issues is still being debated?
Cannot be ignored means cannot be ignored, you don't need an elder to tell you that.
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This situation is more complicated than that. It has never been defined the gaining CBI after an ignore has happened stops the ignore. Especially since another elder ruled differently:
Cannot be Ignored allows the EC to block in spite of an ability that would otherwise ignore him being active. This is similar to how cannot be negated allows an ability to activate in spite of an ability that would otherwise negate it being active.
However, if a character currently in battle is being ignored, giving it a cannot be ignored ability at that point does nothing, unless the current ignore is interrupted.
As to whether CBIg is a protect, I'm not entirely sure. I will let other elders comment on that one.
So please do not act like this is clean cut and decided which it isn't.
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Gabe said that CBIgnore was it's own ability, which I really don't understand, but...
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Gabe said that CBIgnore was it's own ability, which I really don't understand, but...
Well, maybe he should come here and explain it then ;)
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Ignore isn't considered harm, it doesn't make sense that you can protect yourself from something that isn't harming you.
Gabe said that CBIgnore was it's own ability, which I really don't understand, but...
Seems about right to me.
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CBI means you can't be ignored no matter what.
CBN means it can't be negated no matter what. Same reasoning goes for CBP and CBI.
All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.
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Except that playing Faith in Our High Priest after I've negated AoC (not promo) played on your John doesn't retroactively grant AoC CBN status, so why would any card that grants CBIg do such?
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All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.
So, what your saying is, TGT is more alive and dominant than it was BEFORE Disciples. Oh joy.
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All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.
So, what your saying is, TGT is more alive and dominant than it was BEFORE Disciples. Oh joy.
Um, that's not how I read what he said. Bryon said CBIg works no matter what, including retroactively apparently, so Golgotha can protect from ignore both pre-battle and in battle. That's what I got out of it, at least. I hope I'm misunderstanding, though, since otherwise TGT (ignore, at least) is completely and totally destroyed.
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Except that playing Faith in Our High Priest after I've negated AoC (not promo) played on your John doesn't retroactively grant AoC CBN status, so why would any card that grants CBIg do such?
Thanks, I was about to use an eerily similar example.
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All other "Cannot Be" abilities are protect abilities, which must be activated BEFORE an ability it is protecting from.
So, what your saying is, TGT is more alive and dominant than it was BEFORE Disciples. Oh joy.
Um, that's not how I read what he said. Bryon said CBIg works no matter what, including retroactively apparently, so Golgotha can protect from ignore both pre-battle and in battle. That's what I got out of it, at least.
I missed the "other," sorry.
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ok i can see this going...
CBIg works even after ignore in battle because we say so because we want to implement the new errata that Golgotha can only be used once in the turn and that DragonRaid doesnt negate the ignore after it discards the EE...im so confused.
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It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.
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When everyone gets this figured out- lemme know. k
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When everyone gets this figured out- lemme know. k
Best I can Tell we have One Elder who says that the CBI works recursively(Since Gabe has not posted here I am only counting Bryon) and one who says it does not work recursively, Professoralstad. So right now it is any one's guess. We need moar elder input.
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It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.
You keep telling us what it's NOT, yet you and Bryon have yet to explain what it IS. Precedent says that all "Cannot be..." are protects so the burden of proof rests on you to say why it isn't that and what it really is. Why is "Cannot be ignored" being treated differently than any other "Cannot be"? Why does ignore receive special treatment over even "Cannot be negated"?
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It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.
You keep telling us what it's NOT, yet you and Bryon have yet to explain what it IS. Precedent says that all "Cannot be..." are protects so the burden of proof rests on you to say why it isn't that and what it really is. Why is "Cannot be ignored" being treated differently than any other "Cannot be"? Why does ignore receive special treatment over even "Cannot be negated"?
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It is its own ability. Just because it has "cannot be" in it doesn't mean it's a protect. The burden of proof does not rest on me anymore since Bryon said exactly that, and he's a top elder. Unfortunately, the Professor said otherwise, so the real question now is waiting on a consensus of elders.
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It's like I've been saying this whole thread. CBIg is not a Protect ability. Ignore simply stops targeting anything that has CBIg status.
You keep telling us what it's NOT, yet you and Bryon have yet to explain what it IS. Precedent says that all "Cannot be..." are protects so the burden of proof rests on you to say why it isn't that and what it really is. Why is "Cannot be ignored" being treated differently than any other "Cannot be"? Why does ignore receive special treatment over even "Cannot be negated"?
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It is its own ability. Just because it has "cannot be" in it doesn't mean it's a protect. The burden of proof does not rest on me anymore since Bryon said exactly that, and he's a top elder. Unfortunately, the Professor said otherwise, so the real question now is waiting on a consensus of elders.
All other "cannot be" abilities are protects, none are "their own abilities", which is why it's so strange that this one isn't. You (see definition of "you" below) still have not even mentioned the why yet. If it makes so much sense to you, then just tell us why we suddenly have an ability that behaves differently than any other ability in the game despite its wording. It seems like it would be better to keep consistency even if it means toning down one card (which by itself is also worth it since Golgotha is OP even if CBIg IS a protect, let alone if it's this newfangled ability that seems more complicated than it's worth). Also, the "you" in this and my previous post means you (Pol) and/or Bryon, not necessarily you (Pol) specifically, sorry for the confusion.
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It's not (Cannot Be) Ignored, it's (Cannot Be Ignored). Are you saying "place in a territory," "place in opponent's Land of Bondage," and "place beneath deck" are all the same kind of ability just because they all have "place?" The first is a place ability, the second is a Capture ability, and the last is a return ability. This isn't the first time Redemption has added a new type of ability, either.
Once you unwrap your mind around the pole of "Cannot be..." must necessarily be Protect, it makes a lot more sense.
And, imo, the way you're wanting to define it is more, not less complicated than the way Bryon and I are wanting to define it. Our way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored. Your way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored unless it was already ignored (which would not "tone down" Golgotha, it would make it almost entirely useless for anything but shuffle combos).
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It's not (Cannot Be) Ignored, it's (Cannot Be Ignored). Are you saying "place in a territory," "place in opponent's Land of Bondage," and "place beneath deck" are all the same kind of ability just because they all have "place?" The first is a place ability, the second is a Capture ability, and the last is a return ability. This isn't the first time Redemption has added a new type of ability, either.
Yes, I would classify them all as "place" abilities, see: High Places.
Once you unwrap your mind around the pole of "Cannot be..." must necessarily be Protect, it makes a lot more sense.
No, it really doesn't. There are no other instances of "Cannot be X" not being a protect, so it makes more sense for it to follow suite rather than create a new kind of ability.
And, imo, the way you're wanting to define it is more, not less complicated than the way Bryon and I are wanting to define it.
Maybe that's just it? Both sides "want to define" it a specific way.
Our way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored. Your way, Cannot be Ignored means Cannot be Ignored unless it was already ignored (which would not "tone down" Golgotha, it would make it almost entirely useless for anything but shuffle combos).
Cannot be negated means cannot be negated unless it was already negated, why is CBIg different? Making one card more useful should never be sufficient reason for a certain definition of a game mechanic/rule. You mentioned definitions earlier. The definition I stand by has precedence and is logical, yours is (possibly) simpler but creates exceptions and inconsistencies.
It is a game rule that an ignored character has infinite initiative but loses the battle unless they interrupt/negate the ignore ability. Golgotha and either of our definitions of CBIg do neither. So, it may not even matter the definition of CBIg in regards to Golgotha, it can't (by game rule) change the outcome of a battle with a hero ignoring an in-battle EC.
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For the record, my interpretation (which I thought was the agreed upon interpretation by the elders) states that if you are being ignored in battle, adding a "cannot be ignored" ability does not undo that. That is because when a character is in battle and someone plays No Need for Spices to ignore him, NNfS is actually targeting the character, not just the field of battle (which is what pre-block ignore does, thus why you can't be protected from it by cards that protect EC's from opponent's cards, like GoJ). So CBIg abilities allow you to block with an EC who would otherwise be ignored by TGT, but does not allow your EC in battle who is being ignored to suddenly become unignored. Just like the Faith in Our High Priest example. If you play a negatable enhancement, and your opponent negates it, playing FiOHP doesn't suddenly make it CBN.
I am of the opinion that CBIg is similar to a protect ability, because it does limit targets of post-block ignore, but it also does more than limit targets, since pre-block ignore doesn't target anyone. So I agree it functions like a mix of protect and cannot be negated types of abilities, which makes it its own type. I also disagree that Golgotha would be nearly useless for anything but recursion under my interpretation, as it would still stop exactly what it was designed to stop, pre-block ignore, but will often not affect post-block ignore, which IMO has never been a serious problem gameplaywise, as it may win battles, but it also gives your opponent infinite initiative, which turn out to be brutal for the ignorer.
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The problem with that interpretation is that you could get a pre-block Ignored character into battle, but he'd be Ignored upon entering battle.
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The problem with that interpretation is that you could get a pre-block Ignored character into battle, but he'd be Ignored upon entering battle.
Why? TGT doesn't change targets just because an EC enters battle.
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I attack with Jacob and play RTC, ignoring Gold. I put a Gold Enhancement on Golgotha and block with a Gold EC. Under Prof's interpretation, my EC would be allowed to enter battle via part of what he thinks CBIg does, but since my character was Ignored before he gained CBIg status, upon entering battle Jacob would be Ignoring him.
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^ I like that. If any other elders will support that I'm willing to give rewards/bribes ;D.
EDIT: That was directed to Pol's message.
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The problem with that interpretation is that you could get a pre-block Ignored character into battle, but he'd be Ignored upon entering battle.
Not unless whatever is granting him CBIg status is somehow negated/no longer active. I'm only referring to cases where an ignore ability was targeting him in the first place. Cannot be ignored does restrict targets, but only in the case when an ignore is targeting a character (such as NNfS targeting the EC's of the selected brigade in battle). If I play NNfS against a character with Hating the Light placed on him, nothing in the current battle changes. But on the flipside, if I play Hating the Light on an EC after my opponent has played NNfS, nothing in the current battle changes.
Great, 3 new replies:
I attack with Jacob and play RTC, ignoring Gold. I put a Gold Enhancement on Golgotha and block with a Gold EC. Under Prof's interpretation, my EC would be allowed to enter battle via part of what he thinks CBIg does, but since my character was Ignored before he gained CBIg status, upon entering battle Jacob would be Ignoring him.
Your character was ignored, but was never targeted for ignore. That idea has been around since the question about whether Color Guard in a blue site allowed your big EC's to block Zebulun. It was ruled that even though your characters are immune, Zebulun isn't targeting them, he's targeting the battlefield, and the EC's can't enter. When that idea was proposed, I thought it might be a good way to get around PBI, but it was decided that that's the way it was. Once the EC enters battle, RTC would attempt to target him, but can't, because of the fact that a CBIg ability is active for that character. So the targeting the battlefield part of ignore didn't work. Then the targeting the character part of ignore didn't work. Thus the ignore doesn't work.
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One of us has an incorrect understanding of Ignore, and it may very well be me. However, iIrc, Ignore does four things: protects the battlefield from entry by ignored cards, and then the rest I'm hazy on but I'm pretty sure the battle-winning part of Ignore does target. If none of the four functions of Ignore actually target anyone than your stance on CBIg is the same as mine for all practical purposes except that Hating the Light and Large Tree would not work in battle after an Ignore has been played (so long as the Golgotha-user remembers to *always* load it up before blocking).
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On a related note, is the CBIg status granted by Golgotha contingent on the card remaining placed on the site? As in, if the card is removed, does the CBIg status fade away? I don't think this affects or is affected by the definition of CBIg discussion going on, so I figured it was safe to ask now.
I know this was asked in another thread (or earlier in this one, I don't know for sure), but iirc it never got a concrete answer either way.
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On a related note, is the CBIg status granted by Golgotha contingent on the card remaining placed on the site? As in, if the card is removed, does the CBIg status fade away? I don't think this affects or is affected by the definition of CBIg discussion going on, so I figured it was safe to ask now.
I know this was asked in another thread (or earlier in this one, I don't know for sure), but iirc it never got a concrete answer either way.
Yes. The colon on Golgotha is the new, concise way of saying "while this (or in this case, that) card remains,..."
Thus,
"Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha: N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored."
is equivalent to:
"Anytime during battle, you may place a skull icon card from hand or discard pile on Golgotha. While that card remains, N.T. characters of that brigade cannot be ignored."
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Okay. The next logical step then is to ask: If my opponent blocks my TGT hero with a Golgotha'd EC and I add Dragon Raid to battle and discard the card, is their EC now ignored, or would I have to then play something like NNfS to ignore them again?
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Okay. The next logical step then is to ask: If my opponent blocks my TGT hero with a Golgotha'd EC and I add Dragon Raid to battle and discard the card, is their EC now ignored, or would I have to then play something like NNfS to ignore them again?
Ignore is an ongoing ability, and characters that weren't ignored can be ignored if something changes. For example, if I attack with Zebulun, and you block me with a */6 guy, and I am able to reduce my hand to 5, then I am now ignoring you. So in my interpretation, if you are able to get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha, than TGT would start ignoring that EC, and putting another enhancement on Golgotha wouldn't undo that. But I think there are plenty of ways to prevent that from happening.
Like I have said, in-battle ignore is not the problem, as there are still a variety of ways ignores can be negated, or other ways for the EC to win the battle (Belshazzar's Banquet, et. al.) in addition to a lot of useful abilities that you have infinite initiative to use (Confusion, side battle cards, sitelock cards, etc.). So it has always been my opinion that in-battle ignore is powerful but can come at a great cost. I remember once in a T2 game when my opponent used Burning Incense against my guy who would otherwise have been winning, so I had initiative to play a bunch of False Peace's to get Burial and a few other dominants, and then Momentum Change (to get everything back) and that play helped me win the next few of my battles on offense. And if you in-battle ignore a Pale Green guy, you'd better be darn sure your opponent doesn't have Confusion, unless you already have/have used Son of God, otherwise that could be a costly battle winner. So under either interpretation, Golgotha is not useless, and it might actually be good that it doesn't shut down ignores completely (especially for offenses like Genesis and Royalty, which often depend on in-battle ignores).
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So in my interpretation, if you are able to get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha, than TGT would start ignoring that EC, and putting another enhancement on Golgotha wouldn't undo that.
I don't like going in that direction. I would lean toward the idea that if you attack with a TGT hero ignoring your opponent who only has 1 EC of a brigade in play, that they could add an EE to Golgotha so that their EC would NOT be ignored and they could block. Similarly, I would lean toward the idea that if they block with that EC and you add Dragon Raid to clear Golgotha (so that they are ignoring again), that they could similarly add another EE to Golgotha (so that they undo the ignoring again).
I'm not actually making a ruling here, just stating a personal preference. I'll let other Elders make the actual ruling on this one as I can see both sides.
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the problem with that is you are trying to make a judgement based on the way you want things to be, not the way they are.
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I don't like going in that direction. I would lean toward the idea that if you attack with a TGT hero ignoring your opponent who only has 1 EC of a brigade in play, that they could add an EE to Golgotha so that their EC would NOT be ignored and they could block. Similarly, I would lean toward the idea that if they block with that EC and you add Dragon Raid to clear Golgotha (so that they are ignoring again), that they could similarly add another EE to Golgotha (so that they undo the ignoring again).
I'm not actually making a ruling here, just stating a personal preference. I'll let other Elders make the actual ruling on this one as I can see both sides.
But then, like I said, all ignores, pre-block and post-block are completely shut down by Golgotha. I would rather not see a card that so completely destroys such a broad ability (unless it's for a specific type of EC, like Wolves in Sheep's Clothing or Haman's Gallows), and I wouldn't mind seeing a way around anti-ignore abilities in battle.
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But something so easy as just adding DR to battle? That's insane.
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the problem with that is you are trying to make a judgement based on the way you want things to be, not the way they are.
I'm not making a judgment at all. I specifically said I was stating a preference, NOT making a ruling.
But then, like I said, all ignores, pre-block and post-block are completely shut down by Golgotha.
And if it is ruled the way you are talking, then simply adding DR to any TGT deck will completely neuter Golgotha (which was totally designed to stop TGT).
There are pros and cons on both sides. Either one could end up being chosen to be the ruling. I'm interested to find out which it will be.
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So in my interpretation, if you are able to get rid of the enhancement on Golgotha, than TGT would start ignoring that EC, and putting another enhancement on Golgotha wouldn't undo that.
That's not what the article on Golgotha at Cactus says:
"Once Golgotha is set up, it is not that easy to avoid its effect. If you try to use DragonRaid or some other method to discard the evil card on Golgotha, the "anytime during battle" ability on Golgotha will allow your opponent to put that skull icon card right back on the site. It applies to N.T. evil characters owned by any player, so its effect is far-reaching, especially in multi-player."
Are you saying this is false? That they lied to us, and Dragon Raid would successfully stop Golgotha, contrary to what the article explaining Golgotha says? The Anytime during battle part is pointless ??? This makes not a cent. Help to understand pleez?
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I've got this crazy awesome solution, play Pergamum with your Golgatha.......
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But then, like I said, all ignores, pre-block and post-block are completely shut down by Golgotha.
And if it is ruled the way you are talking, then simply adding DR to any TGT deck will completely neuter Golgotha (which was totally designed to stop TGT).
It will not neuter Golgotha, just make it so that it only stops pre-block ignore, which is what it was designed to stop. As I've said a few times, once the EC is in battle, there are plenty of ways to make an ignorer not only not win the battle, but also suffer the consequences of using an ignore ability. Not only that, but DR is not that hard to get rid of, since it is OT. You can use Land Dispute, Danites Attack, or any card that discards a Site. Or like RDT said, you can use Pergamum, which goes well with Golgotha and Caesarea Phillipi.
As for the article, it's not necessarily a lie, as you CAN do exactly what it says: put a skull icon card right back on to the site...it says nothing about whether that will work to undo the ignore. ;) But seriously, it was written before anyone had an idea of how Cannot be Ignored would work exactly, which is why we are still debating it now.
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Yeah, maybe that should have been figured out years ago when Defiant was printed, or at least when Large Tree was printed.
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I'm not making a judgment at all. I specifically said I was stating a preference, NOT making a ruling.
i did not say ruling. i said a judgement. of reasoning. reasoning that cards should work a certain way to make them good/better is not the same as reasoning that cards should work the way as printed.
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"Once Golgotha is set up, it is not that easy to avoid its effect. If you try to use DragonRaid or some other method to discard the evil card on Golgotha, the "anytime during battle" ability on Golgotha will allow your opponent to put that skull icon card right back on the site. It applies to N.T. evil characters owned by any player, so its effect is far-reaching, especially in multi-player."
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"Once Golgotha is set up, it is not that easy to avoid its effect. If you try to use DragonRaid or some other method to discard the evil card on Golgotha, the "anytime during battle" ability on Golgotha will allow your opponent to put that skull icon card right back on the site. It applies to N.T. evil characters owned by any player, so its effect is far-reaching, especially in multi-player."
As for the article, it's not necessarily a lie, as you CAN do exactly what it says: put a skull icon card right back on to the site...it says nothing about whether that will work to undo the ignore. ;) But seriously, it was written before anyone had an idea of how Cannot be Ignored would work exactly, which is why we are still debating it now.
So, regardless of the final ruling, what's the current ruling of this that I should use at the tourney I'm hosting this Saturday?
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"Once Golgotha is set up, it is not that easy to avoid its effect. If you try to use DragonRaid or some other method to discard the evil card on Golgotha, the "anytime during battle" ability on Golgotha will allow your opponent to put that skull icon card right back on the site. It applies to N.T. evil characters owned by any player, so its effect is far-reaching, especially in multi-player."
As for the article, it's not necessarily a lie, as you CAN do exactly what it says: put a skull icon card right back on to the site...it says nothing about whether that will work to undo the ignore. ;) But seriously, it was written before anyone had an idea of how Cannot be Ignored would work exactly, which is why we are still debating it now.
So, regardless of the final ruling, what's the current ruling of this that I should use at the tourney I'm hosting this Saturday?
You're the judge. Which means if you can't find solid evidence for how to rule it one way or the other, you'll have to make the judgment call. Judges have to do that sometimes. It's unfortunate, and perhaps you might end up making a call that is later shown to be incorrect, but you can't be faulted for that.
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I've got this crazy awesome solution, play Pergamum with your Golgatha.......
Stop being so practical. We're trying to have an argument.
Yeah, maybe that should have been figured out years ago when Defiant was printed, or at least when Large Tree was printed.
I thought we DID have it figured out. I didn't see how it could be ruled any other way. I never knew there could even be a question about it. Apparently a couple playtesters don't agree with me. We're waiting on a Rob ruling.
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Wow, I missed this whole thread...
My thoughts on this mess..
Cannot be Ignored is NOT a protect because, the part that keeps characters out of battle does NOT target evil characters. Protects do nothing but stop cards from being targeted. So, if CBI was a protect, then it would do nothing to allow characters to enter battle.
Also, Cannot be Prevented/Interrupted/Negated is not a protect either, because you can't protect from a negate.
I've had a LOT of arguments over ignores, my current understand is that it has 2 basic parts
1. The ability that stops ignored characters from entering battle, which targets the field of battle.
2. The default rules for ignoring a character thats already in battle. Ignorer is immune to ignoree, ignoree has no effect on the battle.
So, I strongly believe CBIgnored is an ability of its own, and therefore should not be ruled by the same rules as protect. If people do so, then CBIgnored is completely useless.
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Yeah, that's pretty much everything I've been saying on this thread, but it's good to hear another concurring voice.
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So, regardless of the final ruling, what's the current ruling of this that I should use at the tourney I'm hosting this Saturday?
You're the judge. Which means if you can't find solid evidence for how to rule it one way or the other, you'll have to make the judgment call.
I agree with the "other Prof", that as the judge you get to make the call until there is an official ruling. As for me, I personally would allow players to put an EE on Golgotha at any time, and would consider ECs of that brigade to NOT be ignored.
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So, I strongly believe CBIgnored is an ability of its own, and therefore should not be ruled by the same rules as protect. If people do so, then CBIgnored is completely useless.
It's not completely useless as a protect, in fact it's completely overpowered if it ISN'T a protect. The way you guys want to rule it, not only does it interrupt without interrupting, it negates without negating. My "Ignore you. CBN" enhancement is, effectively, negated by you putting a skull icon card on Golgotha. Protection at least follows the rules of "if you don't interrupt/negate it then you can't undo/protect/save your character from it" whereas Golgotha, the way you're saying it should be treated, gets around any and every ignore card, regardless of wording, usage, or initiative. That seems far too OP to me.
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Want to use an Ignore battle-winner? (none of them are CBN, btw) See Golgotha in opponent's territory? Just use the best card in Di before attacking.
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I fail to see how Dust and Ashes help....
Oh, do you mean Benedictus? Yeah. I'm just disappointed I couldn't get that musician custom card for my t2....
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It's not completely useless as a protect, in fact it's completely overpowered if it ISN'T a protect. The way you guys want to rule it, not only does it interrupt without interrupting, it negates without negating. My "Ignore you. CBN" enhancement is, effectively, negated by you putting a skull icon card on Golgotha. Protection at least follows the rules of "if you don't interrupt/negate it then you can't undo/protect/save your character from it" whereas Golgotha, the way you're saying it should be treated, gets around any and every ignore card, regardless of wording, usage, or initiative. That seems far too OP to me.
Yes, it is completely useless as a protect, because then CBIgnored does NOTHING against preblock ignore, which is the entire REASON it was developed.
I mean, probably 90% of the time ignore is used, its used pre-block to stop people from entering battle. If CBIgnored is a protect, then its only useful 10% of the time.
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Sure it is - CBIg is still effective, it's just Golgatha that is less so - Haman's Gallows, Large Tree, Hating the Light, Wolves in Sheeps clothing, all cards that can be active before TGT/Other pre-block ignore, and stop it quite well.
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So you want only Persians, Kings, Heretics, and one other EC per deck to be able to block PBIg, the worst bight this game has ever suffered?
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You're missing my point.
CBIgnored flat out does not WORK as a protect. Period.
Protect stops cards from being targeted, the "keep out of battle" part of Ignore doesn't even TARGET characters. You cannot protect from that part of the ability, at all.
This is the same principle as CBN. You can't protect from a negate, so therefore, CBN is SIMILAR to a protect, but it is not actually classified as a protect, it's its own ability.
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So you want only Persians, Kings, Heretics, and one other EC per deck to be able to block PBIg, the worst bight this game has ever suffered?
Sounds good to me :) King Mannywood and Persians rock.
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Have fun being a minority. We'll be over here chilling in the gated community of correctness B)
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Want to use an Ignore battle-winner? (none of them are CBN, btw) See Golgotha in opponent's territory? Just use the best card in Di before attacking.
I Am Truth (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: White • Ability: 2 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Good enhancements with "ignore" in the special ability cannot be negated by evil cards. • Identifiers: None • Verse: John 14:6 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
Burning Incense (Pi)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: 1 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes ignore an evil brigade of holder’s choice. Cannot be negated if Altar of Incense is active. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Luke 1:9 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Common)
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Want to use an Ignore battle-winner? (none of them are CBN, btw) See Golgotha in opponent's territory? Just use the best card in Di before attacking.
Because nobody runs Golgotha and CP together....
I'm not saying that Ignore doesn't need more counters, but Golgotha as you want it completely neutralizes Ignore as a special ability. No other abilities have such a broad and complete counter, it doesn't seem fair to do so to Ignore just because, in your opinion, it's too powerful.
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Well ignore was by far the #1 most complained about thing before this set, so they made an incredibly powerful counter for it.
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PREBLOCK ignore was what was complained about. No need to kill a major strategy of two different
brigades themes.
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agree, i'd hate to see in-battle ignore neutered as well. some offensive strats rely on it (nt gold, ot royalty).
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NT Gold relies on Ignore?
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Yes, NT gold. You'd know how much it rocks if you'd play something other than your tgt silly boy.
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In all honesty, the only reason I don't think Golgotha works in battle is because it doesn't interrupt/negate. It can be an ability in it's own universe for all I care, but if it doesn't interrupt/negate, it shouldn't be able to undo an ignore played before it (or if the card is removed after the ignore is played) in battle. Call it a protect, don't call it a protect, doesn't matter to me.
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<3 good samaritan/kindness/i am truth
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I wouldn't say NT Gold relies on Ignore like Royalty does.
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the only reason I don't think Golgotha works in battle is because it doesn't interrupt/negate. It can be an ability in it's own universe for all I care, but if it doesn't interrupt/negate, it shouldn't be able to undo an ignore played before it (or if the card is removed after the ignore is played) in battle. Call it a protect, don't call it a protect, doesn't matter to me.
Does CBN interrupt an ongoing "negate all special abilities" effect? No. CBN abilities just work, and continues to work, in spite of the ongoing negate.
Does CBI interrupt the ignore and insert the ability? No. It just allows someone to block, or continue to block, in spite of an ongoing Ignore.
"Cannot be Ignored" is not a protect. It will not be treated as a protect. It is its OWN ability, just like CBN, CBP, and CBI.
CBI does not interrupt an ignore ability, and it doesn't need to. Let's say you ignore all gold evil characters, and I have 6 Egyptians and 1 Herod in my territory, and I have Golgatha active. Golgatha is not interupting or negating or preventing your Ignore ability in any way. It is not prtecting any of my characters from that effect. All Golgatha does is allow my Herod to block regardless of the ongoing ignore ability, and to continue to block as if that ability were not there. But that ignore ability is still there, and mmy Egyptians still can't enter battle.
It is the same thing with CBN. If you attack with Strong Angel, and I block with King Zed, You still prevent all special abilities on all of my enhancement. My cards do not interrupt your ongoing negate, but Dungeon of Malchiah just works regardless of the fact that special abilities on all other enhancements are prevented.
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We need to come up with better initials for CBIgnored. CBInterrupted had those first.
HT needs some too...all of them.
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"Cannot be Ignored" is not a protect. It will not be treated as a protect. It is its OWN ability, just like CBN, CBP, and CBI.
And yet CBN acts like a protect. It limits the targets for a negate ability. How exactly is that not a protect?
EDIT: Also, I re-submit the precedence of Faith in Our High Priest. It does not retroactively grant CBN status to enhancements undone before it, I don't see why CBIg does if it's the same kind of aiblity as CBN.
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CBN does not act like a protect. CBN is scissors. Protect is rock. Negate is paper.
Rock beats scissors: You can protect against a CBN ability
Scissors beats paper: you can use a CBN in spite of ongoing negates and prevents
Paper beats rock: you can negate a protect ability
If CBN were a protect ability, then it could be negated.
CBNegated does NOT protect against Negates. They just work in spite of negates.
CBPrevented does NOT protect against Prevents. They just work in spite of prevents.
CBIgnored does NOT protect against Ignores. They just work in spite of ignores.
When a special ability is activated, it either has CBN status or not. It cannot gain that ability retroactively. This rule was implemented to prevent loops of negates. No such loops can happen as a result of a CBIgnored ability activating mid-battle, that I can see. Is there some loop possibility that I am not seeing?
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No such loops can happen as a result of a CBIgnored ability activating mid-battle, that I can see. Is there some loop possibility that I am not seeing?
I would think the complete neutralization of ignore as a special ability makes just as much of a negative impact as endless loops to warrant a special ruling. Why did you even make the ignore ability just to effectively remove it later on?
In-battle ignores are not overpowered, nor anywhere close to unstoppable, that I can see. Is there some OP possibility that I am not seeing?
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Locked for further review by Elders.