Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: soul seeker on March 19, 2009, 02:12:38 PM
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I've read the topic: Swords vs. GitC which didn't help for two reasons:
1. a confirmed ruling was never made..just a consensus
2. my conflicting triggers is slightly different
I had The Throne of David up with a King in battle. I was blocked with King Evil Merodach, who looks at hand and plays first (ref. must match of course) who doesn't have a weapon.
Which is activated first?
Arguments:
Pro: my ability was activated first because it was in play first (the fort)
Con: in Hake's article, he said the Warden, Zimri, and other SAs get to complete first.
What is the official order of operations?
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TToD triggers when the EC enters battle. The ECs SA has to complete before you can resolve the effect of TToD. In this case the evil King plays first if he chooses, then you can draw/play from TToD.
P.S. - if you'd just ra'd with King David you wouldn't have had to worry about it. ;)
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I say the fort Activates first because its ability was first.
This issue needs to be resolved because there are so many of these simultaneous triggers that this will come up again and again. From my perspetive, the easiest way to fix it is to say triggers activate based on the order that they were set up or engaged. first comes first
(Edit - Instaposted) But then again, I could be wrong
(Reffering to gabes post) SO what is the guiding rule? do Character SA's take presedence over arts and fortresses?
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In this example TToD is triggered first but cannot take effect until the block is complete. The block is not complete until the evil character's SA is completed.
Yes, characters SA complete when they enter battle.
SS, you played a very similar scenerio correctly in our game today when you made your last rescue (if you recall what you did and the order you completed the abilities).
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In this example TToD is triggered first but cannot take effect until the block is complete. The block is not complete until the evil character's SA is completed.
Yes, characters SA complete when they enter battle.
SS, you played a very similar scenerio correctly in our game today when you made your last rescue (if you recall what you did and the order you completed the abilities).
See, for some reason, I thought Throne trumped all because it was already "activated". I ended up relenting (though disagreeably because the "Sword vs. GitC" led me astray) and allowing my opponent to look and play first. So, I apologize to my opponent if I came off like a jerk (it was not my intention).
As for King David, well ironically, he was the freebie card that I drew when I eventually did draw.
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its ok soul seeker we all get confused sometimes :)
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I agree that the fort is active first but has to wait until the block is complete which includes the ability on the evil character that is blocking. So if King Zimri, Warden, Lot's Wife, etc. block then they get to carry out their ability before your king does.
However, I thought there was a rule that if the abilities directly conflict then the one active first wins. Ex: the first strike in battle first wins or if King Merodach blocks an angel with angel's sword then the angel plays first
So I think that King Merodach gets to look first, then you play from Throne of David, and then King Merodach would get to play an enhancement (is King Merodach a play first or just a play ability?).
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I agree with Gabe. The abilities do not actually happen at the same time. Character special abilities always happen first (in this case...King Merry getting to look and play). Then triggered abilities happen (in this case...ToD getting to draw or play.
This isn't a case of two simultaneous triggered abilities at all. It is a case of a regular special ability and a triggered ability.
However, I agree that we do need something official regarding what happens when there are simultaneous triggered abilities.
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The Throne of David
Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Attributes: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Verse: I Kings 2:45
King Merodach-baladan
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 10 / 11 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Look at opponent’s hand. You may play a crimson Enhancement with a II Kings or Isaiah reference. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, King (Babylonia), Royalty, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Isaiah 39:1
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I understand that they are not both triggers but which plays first with Angel's Sword and Merodach?
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I understand that they are not both triggers but which plays first with Angel's Sword and Merodach?
Merodach. Angel's Sword is also a triggered ability.
Angel’s Sword
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement. • Play As: If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play the first enhancement on this character.
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I understand that they are not both triggers but which plays first with Angel's Sword and Merodach?
Merodach. Angel's Sword is also a triggered ability.
Angel’s Sword
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement. • Play As: If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play the first enhancement on this character.
Ironically, by the time AS kicks in it's time for the 3rd enhancement to be played. :D
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What activates first if Michael has Angel's Sword vs a draw/initiative Evil Weapon Ehancement such as Two Thousand Horses?
Michael
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 12 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Enhancements used by Michael cannot be negated. •
Two Thousand Horses
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Holder may interrupt the battle, draw 2 cards from the top of own draw pile, and play the next enhancement. •
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Well, since it is an enhancement instead of a character special ability, my guess is that since Angels sword was hte first enhancement played, it goes before 2khorses
Now having said that, if 2k horses is on Rabby, then it cannot be interupted or negated so I would assume that...but wait, what if angels sword is on Michael..? oh Cannot Compute,..&& DH DHD AL AHHH
FAIL
Guys, speaking from my own perspective as a judge, we need some hard and fast rules on how to judge these. are we going to go by first come first served? are we going to say that characters have to resolve first and then enhancements? This is getting really complicated and some of us are really confused...OK maybe it is just ME that is really confused...
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Michael + Angel's Sword vs The Rabshakeh + 2Khorses is a little confusing, I agree. However, there are hard and fast rules to govern these things. It's just a matter of sorting out a difficult situation and breaking it down step by step. I've found rules questions are much easier to sort out here on the boards when I have the REG and other references at my fingertips. Get me in a tournament and I have questions (and get confused) too.
Michael enters battle and Angel's Sword activates, waiting for a human EC to block.
The Rabshakeh enters battle, Angel's Sword triggers (but still waits for it's chance to play), characters abilities complete and 2Khorses activates.
2Khorses tries to interrupt Angel's Sword but cannot since it's used by Micahel.
The holder of 2Khorses may draw 2.
Angel's Sword play next was active first so Michael is allowed to play an enhancement.
Provided there is still an evil character in battle, the holder of 2Khorses is now allowed to play next.
Angel’s Sword
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement. • Play As: If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play the first enhancement on this character. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Numbers 22:23
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Gabe is correct in all of the above.
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That is how I would have ruled it. it is a good thing that so far we dont have too many of those issues. Michael on the hero side and nergalshazzar, Rabbeshach, and naamaan on the evil side.
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That is how I thought it was ruled Gabe but then why doesn't Angel's Sword play before Merodach? I thought it was the same logic. And if Angel's Sword plays before Merodach then I would think that David's Throne also plays before it. It seems like they should all be the same for consistency and if they're not then I'm missing something.
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The difference between Rabby and merodach is that the ability to play an enhancement is part of the character SA, not part of an enhancement SA. In order for the block to be complete the full SA on the EC must be fulfilled before Angels Sword can be activaed.
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so, does this mean AS would work before Complainers? If AS can insert itself into step 2/3 of the order of abilities, then choose the rescuer abilities would need to come after it...
*edit*
Better question. You all seem to agree that AS inserts itself before 2kh correct?
What if 2kh was on Assyrian archer? He is not technically IN BATTLE until his ability completes. However, order of abilities states that 2kh activates before his banding ability, so he cant finish his ability until 2kh is done, meaning he isnt IN BATTLE until 2kh is done.
I really dislike the way AS works right now. It goes against the entire order of abilities.
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I really dislike the way AS works right now. It goes against the entire order of abilities.
QFT. I believe Angel's Sword should activate *after* the EC has fully blocked (including the abilities of WC enh.)
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The Rabshakeh enters battle, Angel's Sword triggers (but still waits for it's chance to play), characters abilities complete and 2Khorses activates.
Going along with what I said above, this is where the whole Angels Sword/2kh situation runs into a snag.
So, unless this issue is resolved, I am going to play Angels Sword so that it lets me play before my opponents EC can band or choose the rescuer, because this is clearly where Angels Sword activates according to the general consensus.
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The difference between Rabby and merodach is that the ability to play an enhancement is part of the character SA, not part of an enhancement SA. In order for the block to be complete the full SA on the EC must be fulfilled before Angels Sword can be activaed.
Better question. You all seem to agree that AS inserts itself before 2kh correct?
No, I don't think so. Even Gabe's example with Byron's agreement has 2kh activating before AS. It interrupts the battle and draws 3 cards. It is only when it directly conflicts (two abilities trying to be first) with AS that AS gets to go first. Now with Lambo's Assyrian Archer...
The Assyrian would try to play next with 2kh but can't because AS gets to go first. Does AS play an enhancement at that moment or does it wait for the rest of Assyrian Archer to complete since character abilities are supposed to finish first? If it waits, then what it happens if Assyrian Archer ends up banding to Complainers? You switch out the hero and then you get to finally play next on Assyrian Archer? I agree that things don't quite seem to mesh here.
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So... can we get an official stance on what happens with 2kh and a banding character?
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Sorry for the double post but this was more than an edits worth of info:
I have two more questions.
Angels Sword has a similar trigger to Hidden Treasures does it not? If this is the case, the current ruling of Angels Sword would mean that Hidden Treasures kicks in before a WC enh on David, would it not? Because, if WC enhs do not count as part of the character, then David is already in battle before his WC enhancement, at least thats what Bryon and Gabe seem to agree on:
The Rabshakeh enters battle, Angel's Sword triggers (but still waits for it's chance to play), characters abilities complete and 2Khorses activates.
Next question, Angels Sword vs Bow and Arrow. Would Angels Sword still manage to insert itself into the order of abilities and beat out the immunity of Bow and Arrow? Bow and Arrow is not trying to play next, its not trying to interrupt AS, it just slaps immunity on the EC as soon as it activates. Gabe states in the quote above that 2kh does indeed try to ACTIVATE before the play next happens. So would it grant its immunity before the next enh is played?
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I guess I didn't read Gabe's post closely enough. Angel's Sword allows FIRST enhancement. There can only be one first enhancement. Just like there can only be one first strike (first one activated takes precidence). If an Angel with Angel's Sword attacks, and is blocked by a human banded to a demon banded to a human with an immunity weapon, then the angel gets to play after all of that other stuff completes. However, if any of the abilities on any of the evil cards allow the playing of an enhancement, then it has to get in line behind the FIRST enhancement played by the angel.
Of course, on most angels, your horsies will interrupt Angel's Sword, allowing you to play en EE before the angel.
However, the horsies do NOT interrupt Angel's Sword on Michael, so he plays first enhancement regardless.
Am I alone in seeing it this way?
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See, this is what I dont like about Angels Sword.
How can Angels Sword be fully triggered if the EC is technically not IN BATTLE until all 5 steps of the Order of Abilities are complete?
Again, I use the assyrian archer example, How can 2kh try even try to interrupt Angels Sword, if the trigger isnt fullfilled yet, as the EC is not totally in battle?
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I guess I didn't read Gabe's post closely enough. Angel's Sword allows FIRST enhancement. There can only be one first enhancement. Just like there can only be one first strike (first one activated takes precidence). If an Angel with Angel's Sword attacks, and is blocked by a human banded to a demon banded to a human with an immunity weapon, then the angel gets to play after all of that other stuff completes. However, if any of the abilities on any of the evil cards allow the playing of an enhancement, then it has to get in line behind the FIRST enhancement played by the angel.
Of course, on most angels, your horsies will interrupt Angel's Sword, allowing you to play en EE before the angel.
However, the horsies do NOT interrupt Angel's Sword on Michael, so he plays first enhancement regardless.
Am I alone in seeing it this way?
This is how I saw it. That unless AS is on michael, it will likely be interupted by 2khorse/swift horses/Nammans chariot and horse etc. IF it is not interrupted or if it IS on michael, then AS goes first before any enhancement. (even gold shield)
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This is how I saw it. That unless AS is on michael, it will likely be interupted by 2khorse/swift horses/Nammans chariot and horse etc. IF it is not interrupted or if it IS on michael, then AS goes first before any enhancement. (even gold shield)
Yet again I ask you all, How can Angels Sword be triggered, if the EC has not technically "blocked" until all 5 steps of the Order of abilities complete?
Sorry to sound like a broken record but I'm majorly disagreeing with how this works right now.
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Yet again I ask you all, How can Angels Sword be triggered, if the EC has not technically "blocked" until all 5 steps of the Order of abilities complete?
Sorry to sound like a broken record but I'm majorly disagreeing with how this works right now.
Post the five steps so I can refresh my memory. I must be missing somethign too
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When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained abilities), and an order is not specified, perform the abilities in this order:
1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.
4. Then, complete banding abilities.
5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.
This is why I keep hammering the Assyrian Archer question. Banding comes after Warrior Class abilities in the order of abilities.
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OOoohh. Yeah I see what you are talking about. I am guessing that they are saying that only the first two are involved in the presentation of the blocker. In other words, Angels sword can catch a banding character in battle and play an enhancement before they can band to someone. But that seems foolish since banding ablilities are printed on the card.
I think we have to re-think AS or rethink the order of operations. Why was this order decided on in this particular way anyway, what was the reasoning behind inserting Weapon Class abilities before the rest of the printed character abilities? Perhaps Bryon or Rob can shed some light onto that.
The only fix I can see is to move #3 to #5 spot and move the other two up.
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Yeah, I use Hidden Treasures as a similar example, Since even Choose the Blocker abilities get to activate before Hidden Treasures kicks in, since thats when the hero is finally "in battle."
I say the only way to fix this is Angels Sword must wait for all 5 steps to complete, then it allows you to play the next enhancement.
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I guess I didn't read Gabe's post closely enough. Angel's Sword allows FIRST enhancement. There can only be one first enhancement. Just like there can only be one first strike (first one activated takes precidence). If an Angel with Angel's Sword attacks, and is blocked by a human banded to a demon banded to a human with an immunity weapon, then the angel gets to play after all of that other stuff completes. However, if any of the abilities on any of the evil cards allow the playing of an enhancement, then it has to get in line behind the FIRST enhancement played by the angel.
Of course, on most angels, your horsies will interrupt Angel's Sword, allowing you to play en EE before the angel.
However, the horsies do NOT interrupt Angel's Sword on Michael, so he plays first enhancement regardless.
Am I alone in seeing it this way?
+1
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My challenge to Bryon and STAMP, and all who agree with them:
Explain how the trigger of Angels Sword has been met before 2kh is activated? When has the Evil Character truely "Blocked?"
*Edit* yes, I agree it allows the *first* enh to be played, but How can you all say the trigger of "When a human evil character BLOCKS..." has been fullfilled?
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All five steps are completed before Angel's Sword allows the enhancement to be played. HOWEVER, if there is a "play an enhancement" ability on any of the cards in any of the steps, that ability is delayed until AFTER the enhancement allowed by Angel's Sword.
Again, this only applies to cards such as Angel's Sword that allow you to play the FIRST enhancement. At least, I am fairly certain that is the case.
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That just seems strange to me... Instantaneous abilities happen instantly do they not? :-\ How does Angels Sword manage to shove itself inbetween instant abilities, when even Dominants cannot?
This just doesnt seem very consistant... Some WC enhs work fine, but others do not?
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Have we made a final decision then? If so, please post an ordered list of what happens when, because I am completely confused.
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Seems pretty situational which isn't consistant.
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That just seems strange to me... Instantaneous abilities happen instantly do they not? :-\ How does Angels Sword manage to shove itself inbetween instant abilities, when even Dominants cannot?
This just doesnt seem very consistant... Some WC enhs work fine, but others do not?
Angel's Sword doesn't shove itself in between two abilities. Angel's Sword is an ongoing ability that delays other "play an/next/first enhancement" abilities before they happen, then triggers its own "play first enhancement" ability when its conditions are met.
Also, it has nothing to do with the types of cards that carry these abilities. If I had a fortress, or dominant, or site, or artifact, or hero, or evil character, or non-WC enhancement that gave a "play first enhancement" ability to a player, then it would work exactly the same way as Angel's Sword. And if it came up against any type of card that gives a "play an/next/first" enhancement ability to another player, then the first one active wins, no matter what type of card the abilities are on.
In effect, a "play first enhancement" ability does two things:
1) sets a trigger for when that first enhancement can be played
2) disallows the playing of enhancements before that point. Any "play (an/next/first) enhancement" abilities that try to take effect before the trigger are instead delayed until after the first enhancement is played.
That is the way I've explained it here. I'm open to correction if there is documentation otherwise, but I thought that was the case.
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Ok, I see where the problem lies.
Angels Sword and Helmet of Brass do not fit into ANY current card category. In the REG, Play next is listed as an instant ability, not ongoing...
So right now, theres no official documentation in the REG stating how the card should be played.
The current How to play for play next states:
The rules of initiative require that the player with initiative may play the next enhancement card or pass. However, ‘play the next enhancement’ cards allow the holder to temporarily suspend the initiative rules until the effect is completed. If playing the next card depends on a condition to be satisfied, the special ability to play the next card may either be delayed or not completed at all. For example, some ‘play next enhancement’ cards cannot be completed until a blocker is presented in battle. In this condition, an enhancement card cannot be played until the blocker is presented and the blocker’s special ability is activated. If no blocker is presented, no enhancement card can be played.
I see nothing about it delaying other abilities, but rather only that it must wait for its trigger, like I have been arguing this whole time.
If Angels sword is to be played the way you describe, could we make a new ability type called Play First? It'd be ongoing like you said, and would delay other abilities like you said. However, right now the closest documentation in the REG is the above, and it says nothing about delaying...
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Aren't all delayed trigger abilities ongoing while they wait for the instant part of their ability to kick in? Isn't that how interrupt the battle can interrupt delayed triggers? (How, for example, Archer+horses+endbattle keeps the delayed trigger on the archer from kicking in).
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There definitely needs to be a clarification of "Play First" in the REG, then. Since it is not a separate category, I would naturally base my ruling on "Play Next" rules only. Much like "Band a second hero" is treated as "Band an additional hero," I did not see "Play First" as a literal phrase. I have always treated it as a triggered ability that must wait for character abilities to complete.
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Aren't all delayed trigger abilities ongoing while they wait for the instant part of their ability to kick in? Isn't that how interrupt the battle can interrupt delayed triggers? (How, for example, Archer+horses+endbattle keeps the delayed trigger on the archer from kicking in).
Yeah, I agree they are ongoing, but theres still nothing in the REG about other intantantaneous abilities being delayed until AS gets to Play First.
There definitely needs to be a clarification of "Play First" in the REG, then. Since it is not a separate category, I would naturally base my ruling on "Play Next" rules only. Much like "Band a second hero" is treated as "Band an additional hero," I did not see "Play First" as a literal phrase. I have always treated it as a triggered ability that must wait for character abilities to complete.
+1 As said, the REG currently seems to point to me being correct, and Angels Sword has to wait for all abilties to go first, even those that play enhancements.
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Well, if "play the first enhancement" is ruled to mean only "play an enhancement," then you will wait for ALL abilities to complete, and Michael w/Angel's sword gets trumped by any schmo with a horse. I'm not saying it would be all bad. It might be nice to have one fewer ability, rather than one more. However, it has always seemed like most players who read "first enhancement" would assume it allows the FIRST enhancement. That's the way I understood it in playtesting Kings and so thats the way I've explained it here. However, like I said, I'm open to correction.
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I'm not necessarily suggesting a correction to your ruling, but rather a clarification of "Play First" maybe just as a bullet point in the "Play Next" section. Like I said earlier, if I'm looking up a ruling for "Play First" and find nothing, the "Play Next" seems the most logical next place to search. Having a brief paragraph (that says what you are saying) in the "How to Use" part would alleviate any confusion.
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Agreed. One simple bullet point in the REG would end this entire debate, and clearly explain how these cards work.
The end of headaches for all. I would be fine with it delaying other abilities, so long as thats actually written into the rules.
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Hey,
if the EC is technically not IN BATTLE until all 5 steps of the Order of Abilities are complete
This is not true! If the Evil Character is physically in the field of battle then the character is in battle. I have seen several people make this statement that the character is not in battle until it's ability is completed, but it simply is not true.
The rule that is relevant to this situation is that abilities that activate [enters battle] take precedence over abilities that are triggered. A lot of players haven't seemed to pick up on this rule yet and I'm not sure why.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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This is not true! If the Evil Character is physically in the field of battle then the character is in battle. I have seen several people make this statement that the character is not in battle until it's ability is completed, but it simply is not true.
The entry into battle and activation of special ability occur at the same moment. I'm not aware of anything in the rules that says they are two separate events. Moreover, if a character is in battle before his special ability (tries to) activates, then every battle has a "lone Hero" at the start and demon-discard Lost Soul can be triggered in any battle, for example.
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Hey,
The entry into battle and activation of special ability occur at the same moment.
Sadly a recent change to the online version of the rulebook seems to agree with you. Logically, the ability activating is an effect that is caused by the character entering battle, it is impossible for a cause and effect to happen simultaneously.
Moreover, if a character is in battle before his special ability (tries to) activates, then every battle has a "lone Hero" at the start and demon-discard Lost Soul can be triggered in any battle, for example.
Yes every battle has a lone hero at the start of the battle. But activated abilities have to complete before triggered abilities so characters with banding abilities still take effect and take the battle out of the "has a lone hero" state before the demon-discard lost soul can be triggered by that state. We've gone over this before.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Logically, the ability activating is an effect that is caused by the character entering battle, it is impossible for a cause and effect to happen simultaneously.
Logically, I'd run into a battle with both guns blazing.
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Sadly a recent change to the online version of the rulebook seems to agree with you. Logically, the ability activating is an effect that is caused by the character entering battle, it is impossible for a cause and effect to happen simultaneously.
It's not caused. It's binary. You're either in battle or you're not. Adding more steps to the process only adds complexity needlessly.
But activated abilities have to complete before triggered abilities so characters with banding abilities still take effect and take the battle out of the "has a lone hero" state before the demon-discard lost soul can be triggered by that state. We've gone over this before.
Then you will remember that the ability does not say "if a lone Hero is IN battle" but if a lone Hero STARTS a battle, which you have just acknowledged as being the case, IF we are to assume the entry of the Hero and the activation of the ability are separate events.
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I hope this gets sorted out because we have three legitimate arguments going on here.
Bryon - AS "suspends the step 3 until after all character abilities complete
Maly's - the physical presence of a character is the trigger for AS, no SA's need to complete
and the actuual rules stated in the reg which say in step 3 that Weapon Class enhancements fire off before banding, making AS take second place in some scenarios.
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I just heard back from Rob about whether to make "First enhancement" any different from "next enhancement" or "an enhancement."
Rob said, "It's fine with me that they mean the same thing. I pretty much saw it that way from the beginning. I've learned the hard way that saying the same thing two different ways leads to a search for different meanings."
This means I was wrong, and in a way I'm glad. This makes things much simpler. Any time you see "play first enhancement" or "play next enhancement", it ONLY means "play an enhancement."
That means you wait until ALL special abilities complete, including other "play an enhancement" special abilities, before AS triggers to allow you to play the enhancement. It also means that horses on any WC EC mean the EC gets to play before any angel with AS, including Michael.
Yay! Simpler rulings!
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It also means that horses on any WC EC mean the EC gets to play before any angel with AS, including Michael.
Yay! Simpler rulings!
but michael cannot be interrupted? is this a a misquote? I would assume that horsies interrupt any battle EXCEPT one with michael. they can draw 2 but they have to get behind michael who cannot be interrutped
correct or no?
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You dont interrupt Michael. Angels Sword does not grant him the ability to play before 2kh. However, if Michael is still alive after your opponent plays something from 2kh... he would THEN be granted the ability to play next.
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alright, understood
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I'd just like to interject that we've been playing it that way in minnesota for years.
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This is a big change!!!!! Is this change going to happen befor Nationals? Their are alot of decks being made for State, Regionals and Nationals that rely on Angles Sword on Michael to beat any evil character with Horses on them.
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I would think that between mid-March and the very end of July, there's enough time to adjust.
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I was just thinking of us old guys, change takes us a little longer. :)
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This is a big change!!!!! Is this change going to happen befor Nationals? Their are alot of decks being made for State, Regionals and Nationals that rely on Angles Sword on Michael to beat any evil character with Horses on them.
Wait, in the post right above yours, it says you've been playing it that way for YEARS!?
Apparently not everywhere in Minnesota.
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Wait, in the post right above yours, it says you've been playing it that way for YEARS!?
Apparently not everywhere in Minnesota.
When everytribe gets all cantankerous like that, it's his Wisconsin side leaking through.
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This is a big change!!!!! Is this change going to happen befor Nationals? Their are alot of decks being made for State, Regionals and Nationals that rely on Angles Sword on Michael to beat any evil character with Horses on them.
I agree Bill.
Wow! Bad Ruling (back up) Awful Ruling. Now we can put Michael and the rest of the "non by the numbers silver brigade characters" next to Thomas and Saul on the shelf of "why use". Anybody want some Michael's and AS?
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No, logical ruling. Also, those cards are STILL very powerful.
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Anybody want some Michael's and AS?
I'll take them! Should I just PM my address or did you want to check my trade thread?
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Aw, who needs Michael? AS works better on Ehud anyway.
;)
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Sorry let me correct - to my knowledge in rochester we've always played it that way.
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[Wow! Bad Ruling (back up) Awful Ruling. Now we can put Michael and the rest of the "non by the numbers silver brigade characters" next to Thomas and Saul on the shelf of "why use". Anybody want some Michael's and AS?
That's nothing, Count. Did you see what they did to Miriam on this thread
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15253.0? (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15253.0?)
I guess they have some kinda vendetta against heores whose name happen to start with M. Who's next--Micah, Mentor, Mordecai?!?!?!? ;)
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My name is Stephen. My sons' names are Nathaniel and Isaac. Given our card namesakes, I have a hard time shedding a tear for the plight of Heroes whose names begin with M. :p
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My name is Stephen. My sons' names are Nathaniel and Isaac. Given our card namesakes, I have a hard time shedding a tear for the plight of Heroes whose names begin with M. :p
I'll take that non-denial as a confirmation of a nefarious plot. ;)
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I just heard back from Rob about whether to make "First enhancement" any different from "next enhancement" or "an enhancement."
Rob said, "It's fine with me that they mean the same thing. I pretty much saw it that way from the beginning. I've learned the hard way that saying the same thing two different ways leads to a search for different meanings."
This means I was wrong, and in a way I'm glad. This makes things much simpler. Any time you see "play first enhancement" or "play next enhancement", it ONLY means "play an enhancement."
That means you wait until ALL special abilities complete, including other "play an enhancement" special abilities, before AS triggers to allow you to play the enhancement. It also means that horses on any WC EC mean the EC gets to play before any angel with AS, including Michael.
Yay! Simpler rulings!
Whoooo hold your horses (pun intended). First of all playing the first enhancement isn't exacltly the same as playing an enhancement, sure in both cases you are playing an enhancement but since the ablilty to play the "first" is more specific and is actually what is intended from the Sa it should win the tie breaker. Second of all this will severly hurt type 2 Horses will be runing rampant ( as if they were not already). There are a few ways to stop them as it is. Why then make them more powerful? Thirdly why did Rob suddenly change this ruling ? This is really frusterating. Does he know by doing so he is undermining the the exact special ability written on AS? Does he know that this will hurt type 2? Did Rob talk with you about this Bryon? Meaning did you actual have a discussion with him where you conveyed your ideas? Because it seems to me from your post that this was not the cased. This bothers me because I know that Rob isn't overly active in playing redemption, it is possible that this would affect his judgement on the matter. It also seems to me from the post that Rob isn't concerned all that much with it. He is kinda like "oh that would be nice if the two were combined into with, I guess I saw it that way all along. It doesn't even seem like Rob actually made a ruling. Rob is a flexible guy and I am sure when he learns of the downsides he will change his mind. Simpler rulings always come with a price, are you willing to pay said price? Hold on guys don't enscribed it in stone yet!
I just have to lol because this is so rediculous it is like an atomic bomb exploded and nobody flinched, we are so bound to techinicalities and details of the game that we forget the logically obvious. When you place a character in battle he is in battle , This meets all of the requirements of AS therefore it trigers. However before you can play first you have to wait for all abilities to completed. Tkh interrupts the battle draws two cards and attempts to play the next enhancement but cannot because the ability to play the first enhancement cannot be negated because it was played on Michael . This is why I agree with Maly. This is straight from the REG.
"Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Placing an Evil Character into the Field of Battle constitutes blocking."
http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/ (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/)
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When you place a character in battle he is in battle , This meets all of the requirements of AS therefore it trigers. However before you can play first you have to wait for all abilities to completed. Tkh interrupts the battle draws two cards and attempts to play the next enhancement but cannot because the ability to play the first enhancement cannot be negated because it was played on Michael . This is why I agree with Maly. This is straight from the REG.
"Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Placing an Evil Character into the Field of Battle constitutes blocking."
http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/ (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/)
You seem to be forgetting that character abilities activate the INSTANT a character enters battle. Both happen at the same time. There is nothing "logical" about Angels Sword breaking all normal rules and INSERTING itself into the actions of entering battle.
Basicly, the EC has not "entered battle" to trigger Angels Sword until his abilities have completed, therefore angels sword can not possibly play before any of the 5 steps of the Order of Operations.
If you have a logical explanation for why this should not be the case, having considered that ECs are not in battle until their abilities activate, I would love to hear it.
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Placing an Evil Character into the Field of Battle also activates its special ability. That's the point.
It seems every two months or so, a ruling is issued from which the complete and utter downfall of Redemption is now assured, because the game has been ruined by some abomination of a ruling for which apparently nobody gave any thought to how or why the ruling should happen.
Leaving aside all the absurdities of the initial assumptions, the game so far seems to be not-destroyed. Can we maybe take a breath?
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You seem to be forgetting that character abilities activate the INSTANT a character enters battle. Both happen at the same time.
L Diablo, I understand and agree with you, but let me ask you how you would deal with the following under this framework...
The Amalekites' Slave SA If blocking, you may place this card in opponent's Land of Bondage to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add it to the battle.
What happens if you put a hero into battle and I play TAS? If I'm not officially blocking until TAS's SA completes, then how can TAS ever move itself to your opponent's Land of Bondage? So the steps are TAS enters battle and his SA activates before TAS is officially blocking. Thus, no one is blocking when you do the "if blocking" trigger check. Wouldn't that mean that TAS's SA would just fizzle at that point?
Basically, TAS is not blocking to trigger his SA until after the SA completes. Therefore, TAS as a lone initial blocker can not possible be placed in your opponent's Land of Bondage.
If you have a logical explanation for why this should not be the case, having considered that ECs are not in battle until their abilities activate, I would love to hear it.
Sending the challenge back to you, LD. :p
@Stephen, I understand your frustration at the monthly, "oh noes, this ruling will cause the game to shrivel up and blow away" claims. I also appreciate the fact that you have explained similar items to me in the past. So, I'm not really arguing at all--I'm just curious as to how this current scenario would get fit into the current system.
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I accept your challenge.
I see the "If blocking" segment of the ability to simply mean "if this evil character is entering battle against a hero" as to stop the ability from activating in EC-EC side battles. Same goes for Women as Snares.
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L Diablo, I understand and agree with you, but let me ask you how you would deal with the following under this framework...
The Amalekites' Slave SA If blocking, you may place this card in opponent's Land of Bondage to search your deck for a human Evil Character and add it to the battle.
What happens if you put a hero into battle and I play TAS? If I'm not officially blocking until TAS's SA completes, then how can TAS ever move itself to your opponent's Land of Bondage? So the steps are TAS enters battle and his SA activates before TAS is officially blocking. Thus, no one is blocking when you do the "if blocking" trigger check. Wouldn't that mean that TAS's SA would just fizzle at that point?
Rulebook:
Your opponent must decide whether to block your rescue attempt or battle challenge. If your opponent chooses to block, he should place an Evil Character into the Field of Battle to fight your Hero. This Evil Character can come from his territory or his hand. Some Evil Characters have a special ability printed over the picture on the card. This special ability does not become active until the Evil Character enters battle. Once the Evil Character enters battle, the special ability is activated. The instructions on the card must be applied at that moment.
Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Placing an Evil Character into the Field of Battle constitutes blocking.
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Situation: Michael with Angel's Sword enters battle. The defender intends to use The Amalakites' Slave.
1) The defender puts TAS into battle. Since "placing an Evil Character into the Field of Battle constitutes blocking," TAS is now blocking.
2) "Once the Evil Character enters battle, the special ability is activated." This is intrinsically linked to the action of blocking - nothing, even triggered abilities like Angel's Sword - can go in between these two events.*
3) The special ability on TAS activates. "If blocking..." is checked. According to Step 1 above, TAS is blocking, so it does its capture/search/re-block deal.
4) The new EC enters battle, and its special ability is activated as above.
5) Angel's Sword is now able to switch initiative to Michael to play an enhancement, since blocking and the game action associated with it are completed.
*I see that this might be the "weak link" in explaining the original dilemma. My only possible response is that game actions like this cannot be superseded.
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*edit* nevermind
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Ahh, sorry. I saw Angels Sword before i did TAS, and assumed it was against the AS ruling.
lack of reading on my part ftl.
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When you place a character in battle he is in battle , This meets all of the requirements of AS therefore it trigers. However before you can play first you have to wait for all abilities to completed. Tkh interrupts the battle draws two cards and attempts to play the next enhancement but cannot because the ability to play the first enhancement cannot be negated because it was played on Michael . This is why I agree with Maly. This is straight from the REG.
"Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Placing an Evil Character into the Field of Battle constitutes blocking."
http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/ (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/)
You seem to be forgetting that character abilities activate the INSTANT a character enters battle. Both happen at the same time. There is nothing "logical" about Angels Sword breaking all normal rules and INSERTING itself into the actions of entering battle.
Basicly, the EC has not "entered battle" to trigger Angels Sword until his abilities have completed, therefore angels sword can not possibly play before any of the 5 steps of the Order of Operations.
If you have a logical explanation for why this should not be the case, having considered that ECs are not in battle until their abilities activate, I would love to hear it.
You seem to forget that blocking is a game action and therefore triggered when the evil character enters battle, AS doesn't cut of the enhancements ability or the characters it simple waits within the rules for an attempt to play the first enhancement. You cant activate your ability withought entering battle so the character has to enter battle. Michael would get to play first because AS ability does not insert itself the condition of "if blocked by a human evil character" is simple met. There for you can play after all the abilities completed. Keep in mind the card says if not when, when would be a intruding ability if isn't . The phrase "If blocked" simply assumes that you play the first enhancement when the rules allow it, which does not interrupt ointrude anything.
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Exactly, It has to wait for the legal time to play it, which is after the EC's abilities activate.
If what you describe is the case, then I could CM your ET before you get a chance to play AoCP.
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@TheHobbit13
Any time you see "play first enhancement" or "play next enhancement", it ONLY means "play an enhancement."
AS is not trying to "play the first enhancement" anymore. It's now considered to be giving the chance to "play an enhancement." The point already made long ago is that the WC enh on an EC happens as consecutively and actually intertwined with the SA of the character itself. It makes NO sense to allow AS to play an enh half way thru the SA of a character...but letting it play before something like 2kh is doing exactly that. Is that so hard to see?
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I would think that between mid-March and the very end of July, there's enough time to adjust.
Just thought this was funny - he posted this post almost in the middle of April. :P
Also, YMT/Count, I am in desperate need of a Michael/AS combination. Would it be possible for me to get one of each (and then YMT gets the rest). Thanks!
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I would think that between mid-March and the very end of July, there's enough time to adjust.
Just thought this was funny - he posted this post almost in the middle of April. :P
The decision was made in mid-March. But no one cared (or at least caused a ruckus) until earlier on the day I posted that message.