Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Hanno102 on June 21, 2009, 07:51:15 PM
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So, How exactly does Siege work?
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Brown • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: All of holder's Evil Characters in play and all of opponent's Heroes in play must join the battle. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with Demons • Verse: Micah 5:1 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare)
Which one is it:
1. All the characters enter battle then their abilities activate in the order I wish.
2. I get to add the characters in whatever order I want, their abilities activating as they are brought in.
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If a banding card targets multiple characters to be banded into battle, the characters are banded in simultaneously. The banding player chooses the order in which the special abilities activate, provided the rule for any “choose opponent” special abilities are activated last (see Choose Blocker or Rescuer). The special ability of each character is completed sequentially in the activation order.
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So does that mean you also get to choose the order of your opponent's ability activations?
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The "banding player" for your opponent's heroes would be your opponent.
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Do the Evil Character Abilities activate before the Hero abilities?
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Actually I was just wondering that myself. Maybe the card holder does get to choose. Otherwise, how would you know which character's SA to activate first - hero or EC?
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The way I understand it, based on that entry from the reg, it appears that my opponent and I would go back and forth activating abilities based on the activation order:
1) Activate special ability on character
2) Activate gained abilities
3) Activate weapon-class abilities
4) Activate banding abilities
5) Activate choose the blocker/rescuer abilities
I imagine that the holder of the banding card would go first, in this case: the evil character.
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Hmmm.... although that seems fair, the REG does not clarify any "alternating" activations. This question must have come up before. What was the official ruling from the past?
The key here is that all characters are banded simultaneously. Even though there is a specific order to the types of abilities, there is no known specific order of simultaneous player/opponent activations outside of initiative checks (which would not apply in a simultaneous banding situation).
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I would say that all the EC specials go first since they are brought in first (by order of wording of the card).
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The REG specifies simultaneously, so there is no inherent preference to the EC.
Is there really no experienced high-level tournament host who has to rule on this at Natz?
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i was always told that you chose the order in which character banded into battle and the abilities activated accordingly
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Yeah, I always thought any big band like this was decided entirely by the player who used the banding card, so... I guess the user of Siege could choose if the heroes enter first, or if ECs do.
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I agree with the principle behind what you're saying, except that the REG specifically says all characters enter battle simultaneously. Nobody enteres first, second, etc.
Once all characters are banded in the person who played the banding card would get to choose the order that the SA's activate on both the Heroes and Evil Characters.
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oooooh. Ok, so its basicly the same thing. Though.... would that make a difference if say... two heroes had placed enhancements on them? which of the two would activate first, or would they both kick off at the same time?
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Wouldn't they work the same as all the other abilities? The person who played the banding card chooses the order?
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I agree with the principle behind what you're saying, except that the REG specifically says all characters enter battle simultaneously. Nobody enteres first, second, etc.
Once all characters are banded in the person who played the banding card would get to choose the order that the SA's activate on both the Heroes and Evil Characters.
sweetness :)
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Well, don't take that as official. (I didn't type it in all caps) :P
That's just my take on how it works.
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and mine also.
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So lets say that I bring in the Jeering youths and use him to play Gibeonite trickery. Do my opponents hero's ever enter battle? do their abilities activate?
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VERY good question...
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It is the kind of question that proves Siege needs a "Play As" or "Errata." :o
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Exactly, based upon the current idea that all characters enter battle simultaneously, then abilities activate in the order that I choose, all my opponents Hero's would be in battle, and then they would all die to Gib Trick (assuming my numbers are high enough) before their abilities could even activate.
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Gibeonite Trickery off The Jeering Youths doesn't really make this all that complicated. All the characters are in battle (the REG makes that clear). Once Gibeonite Trickery is played the battle is over and no more abilities complete because the battle is over. You enter battle resolution, determine who wins and the battle is over. If you've chosen to use your Gib Trick before you allow your opponent to use their Heroes abilities then I say, good play my friend!
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believe me all heros gaining 0/4 is nothing to play around with
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So..... a bunch of heroes enter battle and their SAs never activate? How does that work with the rulebook page 13:
"Once the Hero enters battle, the special ability is activated. The instructions on the card must be applied at that moment."
It seems that we would be throwing out the whole "special abilities must complete" idea. From what I can tell, Siege's SA has not yet completed.
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Card abilities can bypass the rules. "End the battle" cards create specail circumstances. It works that way in other situations, why not this one?
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What other "end the battle" cards do not allow a Hero who enters battle to ever begin to activate his ability? If you interrupt an ability, then the ability still had a chance to activate (particularly important for CBN abilities). This is a situation where the hero entered battle but never had his ability activate. I don't see that happening in other situations apart from his SA being negated (i.e. Confusion of Mind).
The fact that everyone enters simultaneously has to be somehow different than other situations. Perhaps not, but I don't think dismissing this example as an easy solution is a fair assessment of all hosts who would have to judge this. I certainly would have been uncertain.
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Why wouldn't simple initiative determine who gets to activate his characters special abilities first?
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Which initiative? Initiative before the play, after the play, or at the time each ability is activated?
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What other "end the battle" cards do not allow a Hero who enters battle to ever begin to activate his ability?
It was ruled that is an Ambushed hero is blocked by a Pale Green Evil Character + Two Thousand Horses + Forgotten History, the hero is simply flipped and battle resolution happens. The hero's special ability never happens. Therefore, Seige + Gib Trick off of a play next card is not in conflict with the precedent.
Kirk
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Why wouldn't simple initiative determine who gets to activate his characters special abilities first?
Somehow, somewhere, someone's special ability has to complete first. If Siege is played, no initiative checks would ever apply until after Siege is completed.
I guess my problem is a scenario where a FBTN hero was brought in by Siege, but characters with negatable abilities enter battle simultaneously and are allowed to use their abilities (and perhaps end the battle) before Moses' ability ever activates. That just doesn't sit well with my psyche. :o
It was ruled that is an Ambushed hero is blocked by a Pale Green Evil Character + Two Thousand Horses + Forgotten History, the hero is simply flipped and battle resolution happens. The hero's special ability never happens. Therefore, Seige + Gib Trick off of a play next card is not in conflict with the precedent.
I missed that ruling. Thanks for the info! ;D
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Which initiative? Initiative before the play, after the play, or at the time each ability is activated?
I guess the initiative as though all were brought in a normal RA order? Hero first then EC. I was thinkin (I know I shouldn't) but you check numbers first and then if there is any s/a initiatives that would give initiative. If there is a Hero and an EC that hold conflicting rights to initiative (one with Helmet of Brass and the other a 2kH [I realize that this could start a whole new thread but I am just trying to develop a scenerio where there might be a conflicting right to initiative]) then the person playing the Siege gets to go first since his card initiated the whole chaotic mess.
*I'm old react with patience. I have no preference one way or the other.
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Hey,
"Simultaneously" is a word Redemption has been moving away from for several years. So basing this ruling on how we interpret that word in a probably pretty old REG statement isn't the best way to go (but props to Gabe for finding and quoting it anyway).
When an ability activates, the first thing it does is declare targets. When it has multiple targets (like in the case of Siege) the declaration of targets also involves assigning them an order. The player that plays the card gets to choose the targets; likewise the player that plays the card gets to choose the order. The effect is then carried out on each target one at a time in order. When the effect involves adding cards to battle whose abilities activate when they enter battle (characters, enhancements, and multi-color sites) part of carrying out the effect on the target is activating the target's ability.
So when Siege is played all opponent's heroes and all of holder's evil characters must be targets. The player that played Siege assigns them all an order. Then the first target is brought into battle and it's ability activates. After that the second target is brought into battle and it's ability activates. etc until all of the targets have been taken care of.
If an end the battle ability takes effect before Siege has finished affecting all of it's targets, then the remaining targets of Siege simply are not affected by it and the game goes on as if they hadn't been targeted by Siege in the first place.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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+1
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So your saying it would be possible to to band in all of your evil characters making jeering youths last, with each of their special abilities activating in turn, and then play gib trick before you choose seige to bring in any heroes. I believe that would be legal if i'm reading your post right.