Author Topic: Set Rotation  (Read 1223 times)

Offline SignoftheStar

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Set Rotation
« on: October 22, 2021, 02:05:38 AM »
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Recently watched a video on YouTube saying that set rotation will now be standard for tournament play at the State level and higher. Can anyone confirm this, and what sets does that now exclude from competitive play?
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Offline megamanlan

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2021, 02:50:40 AM »
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This is the post explaining about it:
https://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-tournaments/follow-up-to-rob's-'rotation'-announcement/

Basically anything before the card redesign will not be legal anymore.
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Offline Reth

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2021, 02:52:01 AM »
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Hi there,

and welcome back to the game!  :D

To add on that:

You can get official information about that from here (even entire thread) and here.

But also check out the new rulings regarding who is starting a game and delayed reserve access beginning from Nov.'21!

Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2021, 03:06:44 AM »
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Thanks for the information, friends.

Not gonna lie... I'm absolutely gutted to see Redemption actually implement set rotation. It's very difficult for me to see anything positive in this change. I really hope Rob and the elders know what they're doing...
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Offline Reth

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2021, 03:37:10 AM »
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It also has some advantages (the delayed reserve access I am not a fan of for example). And classic formats are still legal at least for local and district events.

Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2021, 03:42:57 AM »
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Yeah, but what competitive player cares if the old cards are legal in the little leagues if they're not in the big leagues?
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2021, 07:03:49 AM »
+3
Hey Andrew!  Glad to see you again. Most, if not all CCGs have a rotation format in which the current cards (in this case, the rotation cards in Redemption) are only used for main competitive play. It is inevitable that this evolution occurs in our game too. Also, the game is morphing into abilities and wording and such that is more standardized than it was in prior sets. So as the new sets follow this pattern it only stands to reason that these cards need to be in the current competitive card pool.

The pre-rotation cards have seen many years of competitive play. Now it’s time for those cards to essentially be put to pasture. One good reason for this is the constant go-to decks like Throne, AUTO/Gideon, etc. being used. Every tournament (at least National tournament) the past several years has seen Throne decks being on top. This needs to go as we need to start seeing more diverse decks being used that are equally as powerful. Rotation helps with this. I can understand the nostalgia or the missing of certain cards or themes one’s used to playing, but the bright side to that is some of those cards have and will survive by being made into Legacy Rares. And rotation helps redefine the meta. So it’s a good thing IMO as it causes competitive players to be more creative with the current pool of cards, vs always going back to the same stand by powerful cards to win a tournament with.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 11:08:02 AM by Watchman »
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Offline SignoftheStar

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2021, 12:45:50 PM »
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Nobody asked for it, but here's my two cents on why rotation in Redemption is upsetting to me.

I played Pokemon many years ago. I'm not sure what it's like now, but Pokemon employed very strict set rotation. Cards older than five sets were cycled out. This created a very stale metagame. There were only three types of decks on the tables- 79% of players played the one deck that was clearly stronger than all the rest, 20% ran the counter-deck that could sometimes win against that deck, and 1% tried to have fun and run what was called a "rogue" deck. Sure, the metagame WOULD change every set, but it would be just as stale- only three types of decks, no matter how many people were playing. The card pool was so small that a dominant deck was clearly evident, and everyone used it.
I'm afraid I just don't understand how giving players fewer cards to play with will make decks more creative. Sure, initially the metagame WILL change, but since there are fewer cards to work with, fewer ideas will be playable. Dominant decks should be more likely, not less likely; the metagame will change every set, but it will be more monochromatic, more homogenous. From now on, the metagame won't change because people will get more creative ideas. The metagame will change because tried-and-true ideas are no longer valid, and you HAVE to use the new ideas given to you by the new set. If old cards are polluting the metagame, ban them. If Throne and AUTO are too OP, just ban them. Don't burn the wheat with the chaff. At least give old cards a chance to be used instead of just wiping them all out because of a few bad apples.
Rotation also punishes players. It punishes collection by giving the cards an expiration date. If after X number of years a card can no longer be used competitively, that essentially means that the money that was spent on those cards is thrown out. That becomes more and more of an issue, because rotation causes the prices of cards to skyrocket. Hopefully the effect won't be so noticeable in Redemption, but it made Pokemon next to unplayable. Since everyone needed the new cards- not to be competitive, but just to have a legal deck- the demand of the cards exploded while the supply stayed the same. Brand-new individual cards that every deck needed went for multiple hundreds of dollars. A Pokemon deck would cost you more than your rent for two months, and within a year you'd have to reinvest because the cards were cycled out. Redemption has always been the most affordable trading card game to play, but rotation threatens that. When cards get cycled out, they have to be replaced by new ones. Now getting the new cards isn't a strong suggestion; it's mandatory. That's great for business, of course, but it comes at the price of the players.
Sure, the older cards don't look as nice, and cycling out cards means we can streamline keywords and such. But most of the cards with poor wording are already outdated. People don't use them, so it really doesn't matter much. It was always my understanding that cards cycled out of use pretty naturally in Redemption. Forcing it is sad.
Yu-Gi-Oh is arguably the most successful trading card game success story. Unless I'm very much mistaken, there is no set rotation in Yu-Gi-Oh at all. This comes at the price of an ever-fluctuating ban list, but it DOES allow you to use cards as old as the game itself. More importantly, it means the card pool is ENORMOUS, which potentially means an incredibly diverse metagame. Unfortunately, Yu-Gi-Oh suffers from crippling power creep, which normally makes using old cards impractical. I'm not sure if rotation will protect Redemption from that. If it does, then that's good.

I have never designed a game, and I have only playtested for a trading card game on a low level. I can only speak from my experience with rotation from Pokemon. For me, it made a potentially fun game too expensive and too boring to bother with. That's something I never want to happen to Redemption. It's my favorite game of all time. I hope I'm wrong about the consequences of rotation and that Rob and the elders have a better perspective than I do. For right now, though, I'm just very worried.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2021, 05:09:36 PM »
+2
As someone who did not like the idea of rotation when it first started being discussed, I now believe it is in the best interest of the game.

To answer some of the concerns you raised--

Quote
Cards older than five sets were cycled out. This created a very stale metagame. There were only three types of decks on the tables- 79% of players played the one deck that was clearly stronger than all the rest, 20% ran the counter-deck that could sometimes win against that deck, and 1% tried to have fun and run what was called a "rogue" deck. Sure, the metagame WOULD change every set, but it would be just as stale- only three types of decks, no matter how many people were playing. The card pool was so small that a dominant deck was clearly evident, and everyone used it.

I'm not the final decision maker, but I am fairly confident that Redemption will not fall into a "5 set format." The new rotation format will have 8 expansions, the I/J starter decks and 72 Legacy Rare cards once the Gospels of Christ set is fully released. I believe that is more than enough cards to have a diversity of viable decks.

Quote
I'm afraid I just don't understand how giving players fewer cards to play with will make decks more creative. Sure, initially the metagame WILL change, but since there are fewer cards to work with, fewer ideas will be playable. Dominant decks should be more likely, not less likely; the metagame will change every set, but it will be more monochromatic, more homogenous. From now on, the metagame won't change because people will get more creative ideas. The metagame will change because tried-and-true ideas are no longer valid, and you HAVE to use the new ideas given to you by the new set. If old cards are polluting the metagame, ban them. If Throne and AUTO are too OP, just ban them. Don't burn the wheat with the chaff. At least give old cards a chance to be used instead of just wiping them all out because of a few bad apples.

If you look at the top deck strategies from the past few Nationals, many decks only contained a handful of cards that were from sets that are now rotated out. The last T1 deck I built had 5 cards that have now rotated, and one of those now has a newer version (Damsel w/ Spirit of Div --> Divining Damsel). The "old" cards that were showing up were cards that have long been the most powerful cards in the format (AutO, Throne, Womens Falling Away) and moving on from those cards should actually increase the viability of new decks and strategies. While it is true that some strategies will need their cardpool to be "rebuilt" because they've lost too many cards (i.e. an "Egyptian Mill" deck is probably not viable anymore), that will happen as additional expansions are released.

Relative to other games, Redemption is still very affordable. Nearly all of the most expensive cards in the game are actually just rarer versions of cards that you can get for far less.

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Offline STAMP

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2021, 05:41:43 PM »
+3
I really like the idea of rotation and the way it's been implemented by Rob and his Elder team.  It's one of the top reasons I'm back in the game.  I think it reduces the instances of broken card combinations.  When I read some of the threads about banned and errata'd cards while I was out of the game, it appears that most had to do with mixing newer cards with older cards. 

Granted, some of my NW friends have wondered how I could support rotation when my favorite card and T2 meta has been rotated out.  ;)  But then it was reprinted as a dominant, so....I've got that going for me...which is nice.

(BTW, the 2021 NW Regional Type 2 - 2 player winning deck was......well, I'm sure many of you figured it out.)   8)
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Offline Sean

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2021, 09:07:55 PM »
+2
I think it is worth noting that "rotation" isn't really an accurate word to use for what Redemption is doing.  Really, it is an introduction of a new primary format.  Yes, it restricts what cards can be used but it doesn't put an expiration date on the ones that are usable.  As there are more and more sets introduced the card pool is going to continue to increase.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 09:10:36 PM by Sean »
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Offline Sadness

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2021, 11:12:03 PM »
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Currently the sets are: Early Church-146 cards, Persecuted Church-93 cards, Cloud of Witnesses-129 cards, Revelation of John-129 cards, Fall of Man-147 cards, Prophecies of Christ-241 cards, Lineage of Christ-240 cards, Gospels of Christ(phase 1)-129 cards. Legacy Rares are roughly 50-55 cards and Promos are roughly 50-60 cards. That's not counting the alt border versions of Cow and RoJ.
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Offline Reth

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2021, 04:22:21 AM »
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Plus I/J starters and Tin 26 if I am right.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2021, 08:13:36 AM »
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Echoing what @The Guardian said, the deck I used at Nats this year and was able to get 2nd with it had only 3 non-rotation cards total between the deck and Reserve. And these cards don’t make or break the deck, either.  So naturally, the newer cards are going to be the competitive cards anyways.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2021, 08:33:20 AM »
+2
As someone who lost 90% of his cards to rotation and doesnt have money to invest in newer set, i was devistated when i heard rotation was going to happen.  I thought it would spell the end of my being able to be part of the game competitivly (yes theres classic but lets just be honest: thats not for competitive players).  Now though, after thinking it through, i love the idea of rotation.  There are so many cards that hurt the fun of the game that rotation clears out.  It gets rid of: most all the weapons that let you play first, most of the chump blocks, most of the CBN enhancements, so many consistancy pieces that help you set up in turn 1 and never give your opponent a chance to do anything.  There was so many elements to the game that needed to be changed that it wouldnt be feasible to ban them all. Even though i only have a few decks left i can build with the cards i own, im still glad for it for the health of the game. 

Offline Gabe

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2021, 02:16:22 PM »
+2
There are so many cards that hurt the fun of the game that rotation clears out.  It gets rid of: most all the weapons that let you play first, most of the chump blocks, most of the CBN enhancements, so many consistancy pieces that help you set up in turn 1 and never give your opponent a chance to do anything.  There was so many elements to the game that needed to be changed that it wouldnt be feasible to ban them all.

It's really cool that you recognize this. We've been planning "rotation" for years. It's the reason we haven't made many play abilities or CBN battle winners on the new card face. The ones we have made are pretty limited in their application. There area quite a few old cards that would make amazing LRs but don't meet our criteria for what we deem "healthy". We've still made some mistakes along the way and have room to improve. But we believe this new format is both healthier and more diverse.

I do feel bad for players that don't have a lot of cards on the new card face but want to be competitive. But I'm also not aware of any other card game where you can remain competitive without buying new cards. On the whole Redemption is still one of the cheaper (if not the cheapest) games to play and collect. This is part of the reason I recently went through my collection to see what I can part with and listed quite a few cards pretty cheap.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 02:19:24 PM by Gabe »
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Offline TXJonathan

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2021, 04:57:29 PM »
+1
I was originally against set rotation but realize the importance of it from a competitive and financial aspect. For awhile now I have been using mainly rotation cards with the exception of 2-3 pre-rotation cards. I see the need to eliminate certain powerful and abusive cards from the game (Goodbye Women's Falling Away) to help keep the meta healthy and fresh. Unless those cards are printed as Legacy(LR) cards which even more careful consideration will be given when deciding those cards I'm sure. I like the idea of the pre-rotation cards still being used in low-level tournaments by classic format. For newer players who have a lot of donated cards most of those surely being pre-rotation. I also have most of my rotation cards of the same size sorted together already so I'm good to go. I look forward to the new challenge of rotation format!!
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Offline Sadness

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Re: Set Rotation
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2021, 12:39:33 AM »
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Boy, the old 'Falling Away' card gets lots of love🤪
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