Author Topic: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?  (Read 6557 times)

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2012, 12:50:42 AM »
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Did Judah have no lands while he was their King?  And how was he anointed King without a Kingdom?
It is possible for a group of people to call their leader a king without that group of people being recognized by the international community as a kingdom.  I could call myself the king of my science lab.  However, that doesn't make my science lab a kingdom.

There are things that I would hold to be true and important in biblical accuracy.  That David was a King of Judah and the Davidic Covenant that came of that is actually very important to the fulfilling of prophecies through the end of Judah and beyond to Jesus' lineage.
I'm all for Biblical accuracy as well (as anyone who knows me well can attest).  Can you explain how saying that "David was a king of Israel in the lineage of the tribe of Judah" is insufficient for backing up any Biblical prophecy?

Offline STAMP

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2012, 11:52:46 AM »
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When it comes to Biblical accuracy, I Am the King.  ;D

That being said, unfortunately, Redoubter, there are instances where the gameplay definition becomes more redefined than what Bibloids would expect.  Would I prefer it to be different?  In almost all cases, yes.  However, based on the definition the Elders are using, Saul and David cannot be kings of Judah.

Do I believe the Elders use this process of "redefinition" to get around the inflexibility of the Bible?

Ummm....I hope not!  ;)
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2012, 11:55:04 AM »
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Hey,

You would have to provide proof that Redemption defines King of Judah as anything but the country of Judah, of which there is no current proof (also I can't access to REG for some reason).

Nope, I would not.  It would have to be defined by the Elders because it is not currently defined.

As an aside to this topic, the "burden of proof" is always on the side of change in Redemption.  If the status quo establishes something to be a certain way the "burden of proof" is always on the party wishing to change the status quo.

Tschow,

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Offline megamanlan

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2012, 11:57:50 AM »
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I think the Elders just don't want to claim someone to be a king before the country was founded.
My only question would be, why isn't Reheoboam King of Isreal and Judah, since he ruled both at one time or another.
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

Chris

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 01:03:01 PM »
+1
The problem is that, while Redoubter is technically correct, the "King of Judah" identifier is referring to a different nation, if the tribe that David ruled over before being anointed king over all Israel can even be considered a nation at all. As everyone else has noted, it's referring specifically to the southern kingdom that split off from the northern kingdom of Israel after Solomon's death. While they might share the same name and tribe, they should still (in my opinion) be considered different nations for Redemption purposes, because they were, in fact, different nations.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 01:52:11 PM »
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I think the Elders just don't want to claim someone to be a king before the country was founded.
My only question would be, why isn't Reheoboam King of Isreal and Judah, since he ruled both at one time or another.

Interesting point; his tenure as King over unified Israel was incredibly short-lived (a matter of days, really) but he was in fact King over unified Israel. I'd say it's an interesting argument to be sure.
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2012, 02:00:49 PM »
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Side battle awesomeness and be able to GoJ a hero? Me like.  ;D
...ellipses...

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2012, 02:13:04 PM »
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Side battle awesomeness and be able to GoJ a hero? Me like.  ;D
That's always been possible. Using Rehoboam with Gates of Samaria, on the other hand...  :P

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2012, 02:18:03 PM »
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 :doh:  I guess the point got across despite my efforts to prevent it.   ;)
...ellipses...

Offline megamanlan

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2012, 06:30:28 PM »
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I would think that Rehoboam should be a King of Isreal since there are other kings in the game noted as Kings of a country even though they lasted about a month as King. (I am trying to remember the King off-hand, but it slips my mind at the moment.)
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2012, 06:44:54 PM »
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I would think that Rehoboam should be a King of Isreal since there are other kings in the game noted as Kings of a country even though they lasted about a month as King. (I am trying to remember the King off-hand, but it slips my mind at the moment.)
Like King Zimri? 2 Weeks, I believe. He's an Israelite King.

Or maybe Emperor Otho or Emperor Galba or Emperor Vittalleus? Less than a year. Still Emperors.

Offline megamanlan

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2012, 07:47:43 PM »
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Yea all of them.
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2012, 11:04:18 PM »
+1
I would think that Rehoboam should be a King of Isreal since there are other kings in the game noted as Kings of a country even though they lasted about a month as King. (I am trying to remember the King off-hand, but it slips my mind at the moment.)
Like King Zimri? 2 Weeks, I believe. He's an Israelite King.

Or maybe Emperor Otho or Emperor Galba or Emperor Vittalleus? Less than a year. Still Emperors.
I believe Zimri was only one week.

1 Kings 16:15  In the twenty and seventh year of Asa king of Judah did Zimri reign seven days in Tirzah. And the people were encamped against Gibbethon, which belonged to the Philistines.

And Rheboam does deserve the King of Israel identifier. After all he was the fourth, and last, king to rule the united kingdom.
Just one more thing...

Offline galadgawyn

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 02:37:24 AM »
+1
I think the problem here is that there are different entities that share the same name and different political entities in the same territory.  Like the different Babylonian Empires or the different French or English Kingdoms. 

Jefferson Davis was president of the Confederate States; Lincoln and other presidents before and after ruled over the same territory and people, does that mean they were presidents of the Confederate States also?  They both ruled over Georgia.  What if the South won the Civil War?  The North would continue to call itself the U.S.A but it wouldn't be the same country. 

Does any Egyptian King count as a king of every kingdom that ruled there throughout history?  Now in a history class they use different terms to differentiate the different kingdoms.  I think in this case, Redemption is going for simplicity. 

That is, I don't think they are really saying that David was not a King of Judah in some sense but rather when they want to refer to "a ruler of the Southern Kingdom after the split with Reheboam" they use the term "King of Judah" for simplicity.  For comparison, during his reign Solomon ruled over Moab, Edom, Syria, etc. but I don't think he would count as a king of those.  With limited terminology and space on cards, Redemption can't possibly cover all the complexities of history. 

Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 04:30:51 AM »
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However it is funny that (a converted) David isn't protected by Gates of Jerusalem but is protected by Gates of Samaria, since he ruled from Jerusalem and Samaria wasn't even founded until much later.
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Offline STAMP

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 11:45:42 AM »
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However it is funny that (a converted) David isn't protected by Gates of Jerusalem but is protected by Gates of Samaria, since he ruled from Jerusalem and Samaria wasn't even founded until much later.

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Offline megamanlan

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Re: Saul and David not listed as Kings of Judah?
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 12:40:52 PM »
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I think we already decided on why David is not a Judean King, but now we are discussing with Rehoboam is not an Isrealite King.
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

 


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