Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TheHobbit13 on January 10, 2014, 10:10:06 AM
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Can we still talk about the booster draft aspect? Evening out the playing field is type 1 is different than evening out the playing field in booster draft. Booster draft is supposed to be about an even playing field and deck building. The rule seems nonsensical to me because people can easily make mistakes in drafting if they cannot see the cards they drafted before. Not only because mistakes happen but because these mistakes eliminates part of the whole even playing field aspect of booster draft with out much reason. I would propose a compromise that helps even this out more AND does not slow the draft down. All players are allowed to make any number of face down piles but cannot look through these piles. That way players can organize their colors but other people won't have to slow down too much when people use up time by looking through their piles. I understand that if you don't need a pile system to draft accurately that you would not benefit from this but it would help keep the spirit of booster draft.
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What are the current rules for looking at cards in your draft pile?
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Booster draft isn't completely relevant because you don't have to worry about cheating. Drrek's post was spot on.
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What are the current rules for looking at cards in your draft pile?
You can never look at them until after everyone is done drafting and you can only have one pile.
Booster draft isn't completely relevant because you don't have to worry about cheating. Drrek's post was spot on.
Its not more relevant to this topic but the change to BD is a little bit less risky because there is no a risk of cheating.
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You can never look at them until after everyone is done drafting and you can only have one pile.
Never look at the pile until after all packs are drafted?
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Right, you can never look through your draft pile until all packs are drafted. I guess you can look at your draft pile. ;)
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Booster draft isn't completely relevant because you don't have to worry about cheating. Drrek's post was spot on.
I think Hobbit brought this up because I had mentioned it on the first page of this thread:
I will add my endorsement of said proposal. While we're at it, can we also change the rule so that you can look at the cards you have drafted during a Booster Draft. I'm getting too old for memories.
I would just set aside characters in general. That is what is hardest to remember - what color characters you have, and what ones you thought you had but don't. If you could at least make separate piles of your choice that would be helpful.
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Never look at the pile until after all packs are drafted?
That is the current rule, which is why I would like to see it changed. ;)
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I propose that at the very least the rules are changed to allow a review period between drafting packs.
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I propose that at the very least the rules are changed to allow a review period between drafting packs.
This is what we did at the most recent District tournament here in Florida. We announced the rule before the Draft so everyone would know. There were a coupe of newer players that we thought would benefit from this.
In retrospect, I do not think it added time to the draft. For me, I found that I was able to draft quicker in later packs because I did not have to think back to whether I had drafted a blue hero in the first pack. I knew exactly what brigades I had characters for going into the next pack. Often times (in the past) I had forgotten the last couple of cards that I drafted in each pack, since I didn't have real choices anyway.
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It probably should be started on a separate thread to keep this clean, but I would be in favor of a review period in between packs. I know I don't have a clue what colors I drafted in Prophets by the time I get to Kings, and I'm not alone. It could be an optional rule, much like the other optional rule that we currently have but I can't remember.
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I propose that at the very least the rules are changed to allow a review period between drafting packs.
Not a bad change...I've made many mistakes in booster because I forgot what I drafted...AOC without a Purple guy...not good :(
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It probably should be started on a separate thread to keep this clean, but I would be in favor of a review period in between packs. I know I don't have a clue what colors I drafted in Prophets by the time I get to Kings, and I'm not alone. It could be an optional rule, much like the other optional rule that we currently have but I can't remember.
I mean, 80% the time the things you drafted in Prophets won't even be used other than the occasional hero or evil enhancement (the only really good one being Great Image and perhaps False Peace).
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I mean, 80% the time the things you drafted in Prophets won't even be used other than the occasional hero or evil enhancement (the only really good one being Great Image and perhaps False Peace).
I think the point is you may have picked up a character from that pack, just because there were no other good choices. However, later on when you see a battle-winning enhancement while drafting, you may have forgotten what brigade that character was, since you didn't really want it in the first place.
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I mean, 80% the time the things you drafted in Prophets won't even be used other than the occasional hero or evil enhancement (the only really good one being Great Image and perhaps False Peace).
I think the point is you may have picked up a character from that pack, just because there were no other good choices. However, later on when you see a battle-winning enhancement while drafting, you may have forgotten what brigade that character was, since you didn't really want it in the first place.
Or Vice-Versa
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I mean, 80% the time the things you drafted in Prophets won't even be used other than the occasional hero or evil enhancement (the only really good one being Great Image and perhaps False Peace).
I think the point is you may have picked up a character from that pack, just because there were no other good choices. However, later on when you see a battle-winning enhancement while drafting, you may have forgotten what brigade that character was, since you didn't really want it in the first place.
Thank you, I wasn't saying that was the only problem, I was using it as an example. No need to nit-pick. :)
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I'm just starting a new thread to continue the discussion from the other Rule Proposal thread. If a moderator could move the rest of the posts related to this thread over here, that would be great. :D
The Problem:
While drafting, many players forget what brigade colors they have acquired, especially in the early packs. By the time the later packs are opened, a player may see a character or enhancement that they would really want, but they don't remember if they have a matching enhancement/character from early on.
Beginning/younger players also have difficulty remembering brigades, since they are focused on reading each card in the later packs, since most have SAs. Seeing all the new cards and reading all those abilities floods their mind, and increases the likelihood that they will forget the brigades they have accumulated.
The Solution:
Two possibilities have arisen during discussion so far:
1.) All players may review their face down cards after each pack is exhausted, for up to 30 seconds.
2.) All players may create more than one face-down pile while drafting (i.e. to separate characters).
We may implement a combination of the above, if there is support. Other ideas would be appreciated.
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I'm just starting a new thread to continue the discussion from the other Rule Proposal thread. If a moderator could move the rest of the posts related to this thread over here, that would be great. :D
Yeah, for SOME reason this site got blocked at work... :angel:
But I was planning to split it right after I got home (now). Should be good to go, let me know if anyone sees anything out of place.
For everyone's reference, this discussion was a spin-off from the open discard pile proposal (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/rule-proposal-open-searching-of-discard-pile/), and deserves it's own conversation (especially since I'm locking the other one ;)).
/Mod Post
My personal take, with hosting experience, is that drafting is so long already (especially at larger, Regional+ tournaments) that adding any more steps threatens schedules in some cases. Smaller tournaments would be fine, but it is hard for the judge running things to keep everyone in line, and with more people, you get more "slow tables". Unlike other proposals that would let you look at cards, this really would increase the amount of time of the activity, no matter how you slice it. I'd like to see you be able to review your cards, definitely, but I'm worried about the cost.
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This would be a great rule especially for RLKs i would support this.
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My personal take, with hosting experience, is that drafting is so long already...
I just wanted to quote myself from earlier, because I'm not sure if you saw this post before you did the Moderator thing:
In retrospect, I do not think it added time to the draft. For me, I found that I was able to draft quicker in later packs because I did not have to think back to whether I had drafted a blue hero in the first pack. I knew exactly what brigades I had characters for going into the next pack. Often times (in the past) I had forgotten the last couple of cards that I drafted in each pack, since I didn't have real choices anyway.
So, I actually think the extra time from this rule change would mostly wash out from the less time spent pondering. ;)
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I just wanted to quote myself from earlier, because I'm not sure if you saw this post before you did the Moderator thing:
I did see your quote, which is why I added that it was from my experience as a host ;) Doing a Regional booster draft and being the judge tasked with keeping things moving is not easy, and it is tough to 'crack the whip' at so many different tables at once. I know that once they are all drafted, I still have to check all those decks, and every half-minute added per round does really add up when I have to make sure the whole category finishes by a reasonable time.
And trust me, those I've dealt with ponder regardless, and go over the limits every card already. Give them more time, and it'll get even longer. I can reign that in at low levels, but the larger the tourney (and worse the time constraints due to number of rounds), the harder that is.
I can't see adding time to the drafting process being good, except for at low levels, in my experience. However, don't take that as meaning that I do not like the concept, I really do! I just don't think it will work.
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I would be VERY VERY VERY against this proposed rule if it was ever actually considered.
For me if a game rule is changed it needs to done for either....
1. Streamlining/Simplifying the game (i.e Hunger ruling, proposed Discard Pile searching, SoG/NJ ruling, ect.) or...
2. Stopping CCCCCombo breakers (i.e errata)
All this proposed rule would do is further dumb down Booster Draft. (I personally hate the Tins with a passion.) The point of Booster Draft is deck building! It takes a certain skill to construct a deck from the allotted packs in a certain time limit. This rule would do nothing but create table clutter! If you stink at booster draft in the first place how would being able to make 20,000 stacks of cards improve your game?
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I can't see adding time to the drafting process being good, ...
What if players were only given ten seconds, or even five seconds?
This rule would do nothing but create table clutter! If you stink at booster draft in the first place how would being able to make 20,000 stacks of cards improve your game?
What if players were limited in the number of piles? What if you could only have 2 piles?
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Combining both ideas - what if players could make one separate pile, and review the cards from only that pile for 5 seconds after each pack?
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I propose that at the very least the rules are changed to allow a review period between drafting packs.
I agree!
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I would be fully in favor of a brief review period (10-15 seconds) before the next pack is opened. I don't like the multiple piles (unless it was limited to 2-3 different piles) but I definitely would be in favor of the review period.
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10-15 is more than appropriate for a quick glance between rounds. Since this period is usually compounded at the same time a new booster is being opened, very little time (if any) is lost at all.
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I think even an "every two pack" review period would be helpful enough without adding that much more time. Thirty seconds after the first two packs, then thirty seconds after the second two packs and then after that the draft should be done (unless it's a traditional draft with more than 6 packs, but that could be up to the host's discretion to determine if another review period is needed).
One thing to consider however is that when the tournament has multiple tables, the tables typically end up drafting at different rates. That could make it challenging for a host to keep track of each table to make sure they aren't taking more than the allotted time for reviewing.
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At most tournaments I have been to (especially smaller tournaments with no more than 5-6 tables--which is pretty much every tourney except Nats) there is a host-designated table leader, who could keep track that players are not taking too much time. But it is pretty rare that players strictly adhere to any of the "time-limits" for card selection/deck building/etc. anyway, so I don't think it would be a huge deal if one table got 18 seconds. Just so long as everyone is satisfied with their review, and everything keeps moving.
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To the people who downvoted my previous comment I would like to point out that I am only opposed to Hobbit's proposed "multiple pile" suggestion...
Now I wouldnt mind the proposed review period between rounds as long as the review period is under a minute.
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Personally, I would rather have a review period. I was just throwing ideas out there.
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I think a review period would be fare...especially for younger or less experienced who do not know all the cards yet. With us having many new players in our group, I know they would like this change as well.
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If there is to be a review period, it should be no longer than 1 minute each round.
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If there is to be a review period, it should be no longer than 1 minute each round.
Agreed...maybe even less in earlier rounds...
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I think it should be even less. Just enough time to go see what colors you have, and what characters you still need to use enhancements you drafted, etc.
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15 to 20 seconds is sufficient; imo
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I think 10 seconds max would be best. I will talk to the tournament host in my area and will hopefully be able to try this out and give feed back. Let's get the ball rolling people! Try it out in your playgroups and see how it goes!
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I'll get Crashfach to do this for our next Booster as well.
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I vote 30 second review after every other pack. :)
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I vote 30 second review after every other pack. :)
I would rather have 15 seconds after every pack. ;)
Try it out in your playgroups and see how it goes!
As I mentioned earlier, we tried this at the last Florida District. We did not set specific time parameters, but my table never needed more than 10-15 seconds in review. For me, I just wanted to know what color characters I had.
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I'll get Crashfach to do this for our next Booster as well.
Maybe have an open tourny? all the tournament host around me have been hosting closed tournaments lately...
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I'll get Crashfach to do this for our next Booster as well.
Maybe have an open tourny? all the tournament host around me have been hosting closed tournaments lately...
Yeah, our last one was closed...however I think Chris would allow you to come up regardless. We're planning on having a tournament this weekend, but we're playing sealed & T1
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Maybe have an open tourny? all the tournament host around me have been hosting closed tournaments lately...
We're planning on having an open improptu local on Feb 7th with T1-2p, T1-mp, and TEAMS.
We're also planning on having either District or KY State on Mar 28th (although I know that's way down the road).
We'd be glad to have you (and anyone else) come to either of those :)
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Good to know guys, thanks alot.
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What about using a piece of paper, marking down by only one way of organization (disincluding name), like brigade, or what book the card refers to?
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So we ended up playing booster this past weekend and I allowed my group to look at there cards in-between rounds. It never took more than 15 secs for them to do so if they even chose to...even with one first timer and the other two it was only their second time playing booster. We had and blast...and I placed first in booster...beating Crashfach in our second game. Good times!
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So we ended up playing booster this past weekend and I allowed my group to look at there cards in-between rounds. It never took more than 15 secs for them to do so if they even chose to...even with one first timer and the other two it was only their second time playing booster. We had and blast...and I placed first in booster...beating Crashfach in our second game. Good times!
Ah! Now I know why you were able to beat me, you didn't say you were looking at the cards too. Cheater!
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I believe I ended up looking twice. :laugh: