Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: sk on June 17, 2009, 12:51:09 AM
-
Let's say my opponent successfully discards my Son of God from my deck (via Confusion or something). I later use Angel at the Tomb to put Son of God back into my deck, and eventually draw it and play it. I make a rescue attempt that allows me to play Goods Recovered. Since Son of God was discarded from my deck by an opponent, and since it doesn't specify "without making a rescue" (as the Angel does), can I use Son of God again?
Angel at the Tomb: "If your Son of God card was discarded without making a rescue, shuffle it into draw pile. Cannot be negated."
Goods Recovered: "Discard one Raiders' Camp and return all captured Heroes to owner's territory. Return one of your good cards discarded from draw pile by opponent to draw pile. Shuffle draw pile. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Discard one Raiders' Camp. Return all captured Heroes to owner's territory. Return one of your good cards discarded from your deck by an opponent to your deck. Cannot be negated."
-
Goods Recovered? Who plays that? ;)
I believe that when Angel at the Tomb shuffles SoG back into your deck it "resets" and is no longer considered a card that was discarded by your opponent for purposes of Good Recovered.
-
Only dominant I can see you "reusing" with this is Glory of the Lord.
-
Goods Recovered? Who plays that?
Don't freak out... I was just looking through my extra cards for a trade list and was disappointed I still had one.
I believe that when Angel at the Tomb shuffles SoG back into your deck it "resets" and is no longer considered a card that was discarded by your opponent for purposes of Good Recovered.
That crossed my mind, but I wasn't sure if "has been discarded" was reset or not.
-
i believe this would work. anyone have a source location in the REG why this wouldnt work?
-
If it's not in the discard pile, it's no longer discarded.
-
i dont think its location still has to be in the discard pile for that statement to still be true. sog 'has been discarded' before, but it now resides in the deck/discard pile/wherever.
-
So Redemption always returns any Hero that was captured at any point during the game?
-
Redemption requires that they are currently being treated as a soul/evil character.
On the flip side, Persian Presidents can target characters that were previously set aside at any point in the game (but aren't anymore). Thus why it seems like it should work to me (unless Gabe is right that this is an attribute reset in the draw pile).
-
Well, if we're going to nitpick the one I pulled off the top of my head instead of addressing the question, pick I Am Redemption, Freeing Earthquake, Lamb's Righteousness, Unbound, Goods Recovered, Ezra or Military Escort and let's get back to the discussion. Go ahead and apply it to any other ability that was applied to any other card at any other point in the game as well.
FWIW, Persian Presidents wouldn't work on a character that was shuffled back into the draw pile.
-
Hey,
I was liking Gabe's reasoning, until I realized that cards in the discard pile "reset" to face value too. So if Son of God can satisfy the condition "discarded from draw pile by opponent" while it is in the discard pile, then it's not something that "resets" and thus would be unaffected by going to the draw pile.
When I first saw this thread my initial reaction was something along the lines of we'll never let Son of God be used twice in one game, but I've kinda come around to the idea. The key in my mind being that it only works if your opponent discards your Son of God from your draw pile. You can't force your opponent to discard your Son of God card from your draw pile (unless I guess you force them to block with 2nd Edition Evil Spawn when the only card in your draw pile is Son of God and your opponent has no cards left in their draw pile..."chance'd be one in about... a very big number. Ain't odds I'd play.") so you can't build a deck around using your Son of God twice. The other main consideration for me was that if your opponent does discard your Son of God from your draw pile it usually puts you at a huge disadvantage. Being able to counter that advantage by using two very niche cards seems like a reasonable trade off to me.
So, if it were up to me, right now, I'd say you could legally use Son of God twice in one game if the situations arose to use the cards presented in the way described.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
The Son of God in your discard pile is there because it was discarded by game rule after you played it. Even if the condition never went away (which doesn't make sense, and we're not basing this "reset" on the same premise as resetting a card to face value anyway), this should take precedence at least. At some point, we have to let the tiniest bit of common sense start to rein this stuff in.
-
please show me this so-called variation of 'reset' you speak of in the REG?
-
Since SoG was discarded without making a rescue the first time it was discarded, couldn't you use a similar logic to recur it ad nauseum with Angel at the Tomb?
-
Since SoG was discarded without making a rescue the first time it was discarded, couldn't you use a similar logic to recur it ad nauseum with Angel at the Tomb?
I would build a deck around this.
-
I tried to argue to shuffle a removed SoG with Angel at the Tomb once. The judge didn't buy it. :)
-
please show me this so-called variation of 'reset' you speak of in the REG?
I'm not talking about a "reset" because I wasn't the one who offered that logic. Please talk to Gabe.
What I said - if that is of interest to you - is that cards are only considered discarded if they're actually in the discard pile, or another location where cards are treated as discarded, e.g. Potter's Field. I don't believe they carry around this "was discarded at some point" stigma around with them the entire game to begin with.
And another thing that this thread exemplifies, is the dubious evolution from "the REG provides answers to questions about how certain abilities act and interact" to what now seems to be "absolutely everything is legal if I can parse the words just so and it is not expressly forbidden in the REG". The REG is a guide for how the cards function in the game; it is not the sole mediator between the rulebook and anarchy.
-
i think there is quite the difference between cards that target cards in locations NOW and cards that target other cards' actions/locations/etc in the past. as demonstrated, persian presidents captures heroes that were set-aside before, not heroes that are set-aside now.
like maly said, this combo isnt terribly broken considering its extremely circumstantial. i think it'd be quite funny if someone pulled this off at a tournament...
-
i think there is quite the difference between cards that target cards in locations NOW and cards that target other cards' actions/locations/etc in the past. as demonstrated, persian presidents captures heroes that were set-aside before, not heroes that are set-aside now.
A distinction which only exists on one other card, and in both cases refers to a card that was returned to play from a set-aside area. In neither of those cases does that condition continue to apply to those cards once they are e.g. discarded.
Neither is there any other instance in the game where any consideration is given to any card that might have been affected in a certain way previously but is no longer in the same state it was. Cards that return captured Heroes to territory do not continually return those same Heroes to territory each time such an ability is played. Shadow of Death does not affect "the first Evil Character" if it is no longer in play.
-
cards that return other captured cards to territory refer to the present tense (heroes/ec's currently captured). i dont believe they contain wording that would imply past tense.
also, would shadow of death not discard an evil character in set-aside?
-
Hey,
Since SoG was discarded without making a rescue the first time it was discarded, couldn't you use a similar logic to recur it ad nauseum with Angel at the Tomb?
Once Son of God rescues a lost soul the "without making a rescue" part of the condition on Angel at the Tomb can no longer be satisfied so Angel at the Tomb could not recover Son of God for a second rescue.
[The REG] is not the sole mediator between the rulebook and anarchy.
Of course not, that's Bryon's job :D
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Poor Shaefer trying to defend whats not there...lol
-
Once Son of God rescues a lost soul the "without making a rescue" part of the condition on Angel at the Tomb can no longer be satisfied so Angel at the Tomb could not recover Son of God for a second rescue.
According to your and Chief's logic, it can, because the one time he discarded it, it was discarded without making a rescue, and so for the rest of the game, that "discarded without making a rescue" hangs around its neck.
-
Hey,
also, would shadow of death not discard an evil character in set-aside?
It would not, it doesn't say otherwise so it can only discard evil characters that are in play.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Hey,
Once Son of God rescues a lost soul the "without making a rescue" part of the condition on Angel at the Tomb can no longer be satisfied so Angel at the Tomb could not recover Son of God for a second rescue.
According to your and Chief's logic, it can, because the one time he discarded it, it was discarded without making a rescue, and so for the rest of the game, that "discarded without making a rescue" hangs around its neck.
Not if "was discarded" and "without making a rescue" are separate conditions. Which is how I'm treating them.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
cards that return other captured cards to territory refer to the present tense (heroes/ec's currently captured). i dont believe they contain wording that would imply past tense.
Captured can be read as past tense. Especially in a world where we've already gone down this rabbit trail.
Not if "was discarded" and "without making a rescue" are separate conditions. Which is how I'm treating them.
Why would you treat them as separate when the latter modifies the former?
And why would you treat them as separate, but not treat "was discarded" and "from draw pile" or "by an opponent" as separate?
-
Let's say my opponent successfully discards my Son of God from my deck (via Confusion or something). I later use Angel at the Tomb to put Son of God back into my deck, and eventually draw it and play it. I make a rescue attempt that allows me to play Goods Recovered. Since Son of God was discarded from my deck by an opponent, and since it doesn't specify "without making a rescue" (as the Angel does), can I use Son of God again?
Angel at the Tomb: "If your Son of God card was discarded without making a rescue, shuffle it into draw pile. Cannot be negated."
Goods Recovered: "Discard one Raiders' Camp and return all captured Heroes to owner's territory. Return one of your good cards discarded from draw pile by opponent to draw pile. Shuffle draw pile. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Discard one Raiders' Camp. Return all captured Heroes to owner's territory. Return one of your good cards discarded from your deck by an opponent to your deck. Cannot be negated."
No. Two separate things going on here and you can't apply the condition set up by Angel at the Tomb to Goods Recovered when SoG rescued in the middle of it all.
Also, some of you guys really need to get off this "show me in the REG where I can't do it." It's not in the REG because until now it has not been discussed and received a ruling. Well, here is your ruling.
Conversely, I would ask you to show me in the REG where is says you can do this? If you can't point to a positive ruling then lack of a citation isn't enough to reach a definitive conclusion on something common sense should tell you is reaching at best ... and certainly not a basis for ridiculing Stephen - which some of you seem spring-loaded to do at every opportunity. It's disgusting the lack of manners some of you display.
-
Hey,
Would it work if I...discard Son of God to get rid of my opponent's Confusion of Mind. Then attacked with Angel at the Tomb to return it to my draw pile. Then my opponent discarded it with Confusion. Then I use Goods Recovered to get it back. Then I play it?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
That is legal because the condition of Goods Recovered is the reason the card is in the discard pile. And you are still only playing the card for its effect one time.
-
Goods Recovered would not retrieve it because it was not discarded from your draw pile as stated in the special ability. Assuming that caveat were not there, and you were able to retrieve it simply for having been discarded by your opponent, that is legal because that is the reason the card is in the discard pile. And you are still only playing the card for its effect one time.
wha? How is a SoG d/ced by Confusion not "discarded from your draw pile by an opponent"?
EDIT: nvm, wrong question quoted.
-
Cameron,
Schaef was responding to Tim's question, in which Son of God was discarded for CoM. By the way, I did that in T2 this past weekend in a local tournament, and ended up winning. ;)
Kirk
-
Goods Recovered would not retrieve it because it was not discarded from your draw pile as stated in the special ability. Assuming that caveat were not there, and you were able to retrieve it simply for having been discarded by your opponent, that is legal because that is the reason the card is in the discard pile. And you are still only playing the card for its effect one time.
wha? How is a SoG d/ced by Confusion not "discarded from your draw pile by an opponent"?
Here is the path of Son of God
1. Chillin in the deck
2. OH NOEZ!!! CONFUSION'D... now its all dead in the discard pile, with a tag that says "Discarded from the draw pile by an opponent"
3. Angel at Tomb swings in and saves the day! Son of God flys back to the draw pile, and its not longer "discarded by an opponent", so it throws that tag in the trash.
4. Son of God is finally ripe and picked from the draw pile tree. A soul is rescued!
5. Son of God goes back to the discard pile after use. This time, it has a tag that says "Discarded because I was used, not because I was discarded by an opponent."
Also, does nobody else see the issue of T2 here? SoG x5, NJ x1, AotL. GOOD GAME.
-
Adjusted my response to address the end result, and not the middle. Fact remains, there's only one use of Son of God being implemented.
-
Also, does nobody else see the issue of T2 here? SoG x5, NJ x1, AotL. GOOD GAME.
That's exactly what I saw. Thus the question. ;)
-
Hey,
Also, does nobody else see the issue of T2 here? SoG x5, NJ x1, AotL. GOOD GAME.
Even if you are playing a deck with five copies of Goods Recovered and I discard your Son of God anyway, Goods Recovered sends Son of God back to the draw pile so you still have to find a way to get Son of God from your draw pile to your hand five times. Not to mention you have to find a way to play Goods Recovered five times (I'm certainly not going to give you initiative to do so).
A Type 2 deck that is trying to play Son of God five times will lose 95% of it's games. If you're happy with a 1-19 record by all means build that deck, and play it against me :)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Some converted Naamans with his horses, along with a little search would do the job nicely. (Suddenly, High Places no longer looks so bad, eh?)
-
I still don't see how it works. If you use your SoG it is not discarded by opponent, so how do you plan on returning it to your draw pile?
-
1. SoG is discarded by Confusion. Play it.
2. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #1 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
3. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #2 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
4. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #3 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
5. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #4 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
6. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #5 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
Rob's already said that the combo doesn't work, but I'm a bit confused as to what part of the combo is a problem (aside from the whole Son of God x5 thing)
-
and while you are at it, you might as well use your goods recovered to pull out your nj, that way the game will go quicker.
The way i see it, we are blessed to have one SoG, any more and the game would get boring because people would just build decks to play one card... boring.
-
T2 Scenario: Opponent discards 1 TSA from my deck. I use Chariot to shuffle it in. Later in the game, my opponent uses Forgotten History to remove 4 TSAs from my discard pile. My 5th TSA winds up in the discard pile and I attempt to use Goods Recovered to get it back, arguing that it was the one discarded from my deck back towards the beginning of the game. My opponent argues that he removed the one he discarded from my deck.
-
1. SoG is discarded by Confusion. Play it.
2. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #1 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
3. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #2 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
4. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #3 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
5. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #4 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
6. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #5 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1). Play it.
Rob's already said that the combo doesn't work, but I'm a bit confused as to what part of the combo is a problem (aside from the whole Son of God x5 thing)
Well, for starters, Step 1's "Play it" doesn't work because it's discarded at that point.
The remaining steps don't work because in Step 3, SoG was discarded by game rule in Step 2, etc.
-
Okay, my bad on the first "play it". But I'm still not seeing why it doesn't keep the "was discarded by an opponent" attribute after step 2. Just because it was also discarded by me on a later turn doesn't mean it was never discarded by an opponent.
-
So if your SoG gets Confusioned then Forgotten History is played to remove it, can you get it back? It was "discarded by an opponent" (or "without making a rescue", if you want to go that route).
What about for other cards, like heroes (TSA) or enhancements (AoCP)? Does the copy that was discarded by an opponent need to be marked to stop arguments later in the game?
-
Can you name one other condition of a card that you track for the entire game like this, no matter what else happens to it, that doesn't have a "uses per game" restriction?
It makes no sense to invent a situation where this card magically keeps this condition forever when we don't even try to treat any other cards the same way.
-
So if your SoG gets Confusioned then Forgotten History is played to remove it, can you get it back? It was "discarded by an opponent" (or "without making a rescue", if you want to go that route).
No, once it's out of the game, nothing can target it to bring it back in.
What about for other cards, like heroes (TSA) or enhancements (AoCP)? Does the copy that was discarded by an opponent need to be marked to stop arguments later in the game?
If that's how it works, then I guess so. It's pretty easy to tell which is which by their place in the discard, though a couple of uncommon ways to mess with the order do exist.
Can you name one other condition of a card that you track for the entire game like this, no matter what else happens to it, that doesn't have a "uses per game" restriction?
Maybe healing cards. It seems like they can target characters discarded because they have the attribute of "being discarded," even after they have hit the discard and apparently been reset. Anything else of the sort I can think of gets reset in the discard. The Angel at the Tomb/Goods Recovered stuff doesn't, so it must be different.
Angel at the Tomb makes it appear that, once discarded, a copy of Son of God has something (call it an "attribute" for the sake of my logic) that lets the angel know SoG hasn't made a rescue. This was never put there by a card, so it must either be an "attribute" that the card simply has, or is a "state of being" (but since "state of being" gets reset, it must be an "attribute," which seems to be something that can't be reset by traditional resetting means). Thus, the "attribute" that Son of God has not rescued still remains in the discard, as well as the draw pile once it is shuffled in. Since this "attribute" idea isn't reset, something different must have to happen to change the "attribute." As far as I can tell, the "attribute" would only change if Son of God rescues.
Therefore, I think that "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute," while simply "discarded" is a "state of being." A card that was "discarded by an opponent" is in the discard, giving it the state of "discarded," but I'd argue that since Goods Recovered still sees it as "discarded by an opponent," which carries more information than simply a "state of being," the "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute." Thus, like above, a time that the "attribute" ends or changes must be determined, and I don't think that it happens when the player himself discards the card. I would think that the card has now been both "discarded by an opponent," as well as "discarded by owner." I see nothing that resets/reverts the attribute."
I realize that most of you think the idea is ridiculous, and I will even admit it is pretty cheesy, but it is the only way I can figure that Angel at the Tomb works.
It makes no sense to invent a situation where this card magically keeps this condition forever when we don't even try to treat any other cards the same way.
I agree, but since Angel at the Tomb seems to set a precedent for such a condition, it seems to be both acceptable and necessary.
-
If that's how it works, then I guess so. It's pretty easy to tell which is which by their place in the discard, though a couple of uncommon ways to mess with the order do exist.
That wasn't really my question - I was talking about discarded from deck, shuffled back in, and discarded again. Check my post before Schaef's quote of your 1-6 steps for a better description.
Therefore, I think that "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute," while simply "discarded" is a "state of being." A card that was "discarded by an opponent" is in the discard, giving it the state of "discarded," but I'd argue that since Goods Recovered still sees it as "discarded by an opponent," which carries more information than simply a "state of being," the "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute." Thus, like above, a time that the "attribute" ends or changes must be determined, and I don't think that it happens when the player himself discards the card. I would think that the card has now been both "discarded by an opponent," as well as "discarded by owner." I see nothing that resets/reverts the attribute."
I would consider (by) "by an opponent" and (from) "from draw pile" attributes of the "state of being" "discarded", rather than of the card itself. When the "state of being" changes, the (by) and (from) attributes change accordingly.
That is, all cards have a "state of being" (in play, in hand, in deck, discarded, etc.) of which "by" (owner, an opponent) and "from" (hand, deck, etc.) are attributes, along with whatever else might be necessary. That's how I see it. (From a programming standpoint, I also think it's easier to implement, which might be why I see it that way.)
-
Maybe healing cards. It seems like they can target characters discarded because they have the attribute of "being discarded," even after they have hit the discard and apparently been reset.
Because the reset doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are in the discard pile. That's where they are, they were put there this turn. Healing specifically targets them. Do you get to back and heal a character that's in your draw pile because he had been discarded and then Charioted back in? Common sense says no.
Therefore, I think that "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute," while simply "discarded" is a "state of being."
Why can't it just be a condition explaining why it's in the discard pile? We are WAY overthinking the plumbing here. Everybody's working a lot harder creating new ways to explain how this can work and what kind of terms should be used and how to track states and attributes and all this stuff. Just do what the card says. If it's not in your discard pile, it's not "discarded" any more. If you discarded it by game rule after playing it, it wasn't discarded by your opponent at all, it was discarded by you. An ounce of common sense in this scenario seems to be worth about 25 pounds of terminology.
-
I agree with Schaef,
However I think what Aggie and SK are doing is trying to establish terminology because then you have set precedents for other situations if Redemption creates more cards with this type of ability.
Just my 2 cents,
I'll leave now,
John