Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: frisian9 on February 13, 2009, 10:20:53 PM
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Miraculous Handkerchiefs
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes in holder's territory and set-aside areas cannot be discarded. Effects of enhancement cards, poisons, and diseases are delayed until Miraculous Handkerchiefs is removed. • Play As: Heroes in holder's territory and set-aside area are protected from poisons, diseases, and discard special abilities. Delay the effects of all poisons and diseases currently effecting holder's Heroes. Protect all Heroes in holder's territory and set-aside area from discard. Suspend the effect of ongoing abilities that have a negative effect on those heroes until this card is deactivated. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 19:11-12 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Rare)
This "play as" decouples the instant from ongoing abilities and how these two ability types are considered by Miraculous Handkerchiefs. Negative effect is defined in the REG. "Suspend" is a new word, but it is very clear what it does. Do you agree this improves the "play as"?
Mike
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Hey, Mike, welcome back. I like the new, improved and more accurate play as. "Suspend" is a nice addition and will probably be useful on other cards at some point.
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Seems to be more clear. Clarity is good.
I just wonder if the recent idea of using Miraculous Handkerchiefs with Doctrine Like Leaven would actually work with this definition. My first inclination is that the combo would not work as desired.
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It's exactly the change we needed. And "suspend" is a better word than "delay". Glad to have you back...
Sean, you are correct that the combo would no longer work, as the characters can no longer decrease. It seems to mesh with the original spirit of the card.
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Why not? Doctrine Like Leaven doesn't rely on the decrease to bring the character back to play.
Doctrine Like Leaven
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black/Gray • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a Pharisee or Sadducee and decrease it 0/1 per turn. Each upkeep phase, search your discard pile for a generic Evil Character of the type set aside. Place it in your territory.
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Weird, I thought for sure it was a cost-benefit type ability. So it does work...
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yay
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Thanks for the kind words. I've been distracted by family and work issues. I believe they are now resolved and allow me to catch up and stay active on the boards. Problem is, I'm "pages" behind. I may be clueless for a while. Have patience and help me get caught up.
Mike
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I was actually more looking at the "ongoing abilities" portion of the play as. Are set asides of the nature of Doctrine Like Leaven ongoing? I was thinking no because they don't do anything except during the upkeep phase and that action is taken and completed. Whereas a set aside like the red one from RoA that protects hand and draw pile and stuff like that is ongoing.
Thoughts?
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So if the hero is protected from discard wouldnt the hero decrease but still stay out since mirac hanks is up?
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If it becomes like High Priest's Palace then I would say yes, if it doesn't protect like that then no. I hadn't thought about that part though. Looks like it has a good chance of working.
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I was actually more looking at the "ongoing abilities" portion of the play as. Are set asides of the nature of Doctrine Like Leaven ongoing? I was thinking no because they don't do anything except during the upkeep phase and that action is taken and completed. Whereas a set aside like the red one from RoA that protects hand and draw pile and stuff like that is ongoing.
Thoughts?
The "ongoing abilities" portion continues to describe those as specific abilities that have a negative effect. I believe that is going to protect the Hero from the decrease from "Doctrine" and do absolutely nothing to stop you from returning the Character(s) since they are separate sentences.
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Hey,
Doctrine Like Leaven has two abilities. "Set aside a Pharisee or Sadducee and decrease it 0/1 per turn." and "Each upkeep phase, search your discard pile for a generic Evil Character of the type set aside. Place it in your territory."
Assuming the Pharisee or Sadducee that is set aside is a hero the first ability would be suspended by Miraculous Handkerchiefs. The second ability would not be suspended by Miraculous Handkerchiefs so the combo would work.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Are negates negative effects? They can't be protected against, can they be suspended? I ask because of cards like Image of Jealousy and the prevent portion of Darius' Decree.
Does Miraculous Handkerchiefs effect ongoing abilities in battle? Like would Hunger still effect the hero in battle?
Are Complainers Egyptian? Midwives is Egyptian.
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The text associated with Complainers is from the book of Numbers, long after the Israelites left Egypt. The text also refers directly to the people complaining, that being the Israelites.
I don't believe negate is a negative effect. The character (if it applies to a character) isn't being harmed (discarded, removed, decreased in ability, captured, etc...).
Miraculous Handkerchiefs targets Heroes in holder's territory or set-aside, not battle. The second sentence addresses what happens to the effect of enhancements that are targeting these particular Heroes, right? That was why the play as was reworded.
Mike
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Negate was ruled not to be a negative effect (or at least, that's the consequence of the ruling) in the 12FingeredGiant vs. Protection of Angels rulings.
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The text associated with Complainers is from the book of Numbers, long after the Israelites left Egypt.
Numbers 11:5 - "We remember the fish we ate in Egypt at no cost—also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic."
They came from Egypt, and were probably born there (like Midwives).
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The Israelites did eat in Egypt. However, they are still considered Israelites (once living in a foreign country).
Mike