Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TheHobbit13 on December 28, 2011, 10:23:56 PM
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Are there any special rules that would say highway cannot recur highway or something like that? I thought there was talk of this at one point in time, but perhaps there erratas have taken care of the brokeness. Thanks.
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As far as I know, the only rule regarding this is that one cannot exchange a card for another card with an exchange ability.
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My understanding of the previous ruling is that "except this one" refers to any card with the title of the return card, so you cannot return one Highway to hand using another Highway. All copies of Highway fall under "this" card.
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YMT, I do not recall that logic in the errata forming process.
Nathan, the errata precludes any chance of Highway returning another. It only returns enhancements played on the hero that is withdrawn and you can't return enhancements unless there is only one hero in battle.
Highway - "You may withdraw a hero from battle. If no Heroes remain in battle, return all good enhancements on that hero to your hand (except this one)."
Kirk
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YMT, I do not recall that logic in the errata forming process.
Since when has my logic ever been the same as anyone else's (especially the PTB)? ;)
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YMT, I do not recall that logic in the errata forming process.
Nathan, the errata precludes any chance of Highway returning another. It only returns enhancements played on the hero that is withdrawn and you can't return enhancements unless there is only one hero in battle.
Highway - "You may withdraw a hero from battle. If no Heroes remain in battle, return all good enhancements on that hero to your hand (except this one)."
Kirk
Okay that makes sense. What about something that can, like momentum change? Can momentum changes recur each other?
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Not as far as I know. It's the same idea with "this." If you want to recur Momentum Change, use Golgatha.
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As far as I know any Enhancement that searches either Deck or Discard Pile, throws Cards back to Hand, exchanges w/ Deck/Discard does mention 'except this one', so this shouldnt be an issue.
Here is a quite idea that I'm just going to throw out there for these kind of cards;
Couldn't they just say:
"Search Discard Pile for any other ____ Card and add it to hand."
Instead of:
"Search Discard Pile for any _____ Card and add it to hand (except this one)"
(I'm just using Search Discard Pile as an example, not saying this card exactly)
But I find that using the first one would say the same as the second one, but it would just be less room on the card.
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Consider the Lilies (TP)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: Territory • Special Ability: You may search deck or discard pile for a white N.T. Enhancement. Shuffle this card into that pile. • Play As: You may search deck or discard pile for a white N.T. Enhancement. Shuffle [return] this card into that pile. • Identifiers: NT, Parable • Verse: Luke 12:27 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()
A Soldier’s Prayer (TP)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: If used by a warrior class Hero, search your deck or discard pile for a red Enhancement. Shuffle this card into that pile. • Play As: If used by a warrior class Hero, search your deck or discard pile for a red Enhancement. Shuffle [return] this card into that pile. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Psalms 60:5 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()
Neither say "except this one" and those are only the first two I checked.
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Those can recurr themselves. (And are the only 2 I forgot)
I'm just suggesting that the wording be changed if they reprint any of the ones that arent supposed to hit themselves.
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They actually can't, as per the rule I mentioned above.
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As far as I heard, that's not a game rule thats usually apart of a Card Effect.
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SomeKittens is correct. They cannot recur themselves.
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Can u post the link that says when that became a game rule?
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I distinctly remember a ruling saying that "withdraw and return all enhancement to hand" abilities do not return cards of the same title (i.e.: Highway can't return another copy of Highway). I do not remember that extending to search abilities, though my memory isn't exactly great.
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I distinctly remember a ruling saying that "withdraw and return all enhancement to hand" abilities do not return cards of the same title (i.e.: Highway can't return another copy of Highway). I do not remember that extending to search abilities, though my memory isn't exactly great.
That's actually because it's always been a rule. Look under Search defaults. You can't search for an identical card (this is to prevent search chains that result in technically legal stalling)/
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I suppose that makes sense.
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I suppose that makes sense.
I actually just checked the REG and it's not in there though, at least not in the search section. I'm not sure why. I remember that rule being brought out several times (including once by Maly).
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I believe that you are allowed to search for a search card, since there is only a limited number of possibilities in any given deck. The infinite loop comes from exchange cards, since they could theoretically keep exchanging with each other.
That is the only rule I am aware of: you cannot exchange for an exchange card.
The withdraw cards (I thought) were ruled according to the title.
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I distinctly remember a ruling saying that "withdraw and return all enhancement to hand" abilities do not return cards of the same title (i.e.: Highway can't return another copy of Highway). I do not remember that extending to search abilities, though my memory isn't exactly great.
That's actually because it's always been a rule. Look under Search defaults. You can't search for an identical card (this is to prevent search chains that result in technically legal stalling)/
You have always been able to search for an indentical card. That was the big thing back in the pre-naz era of Type 2 Multi, play false peace to search for the other 4 then drop momentum change and die.
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YMT and Hobbit are correct. You can use search to get search or moses and elders to get the same out of the discard pile. You cannot exchange Great Faith with another copy in your deck or have the exchanger lost soul switch with another. It seems that Consider the Lilies and A Soldiers Prayer are not technically exchange cards though effectively they are. I think they should be included under that rule; I just don't know if they officially have been.
sidepoint: They don't want to ever allow infinite loops so it seems there should be some blanket rules to cover that.
to Hobbits original question: The combos didn't need Highway, etc to recur itself (it recurs Battle Prayer which recurs Highway) but that doesn't matter because of the errata that Kirk mentioned does stop it.
Technically I could still make my 30 minute discard all of opponents cards combo deck (which is apparently selfish, mean, un-Christian, etc) using The Long Day. This is the only way left that I know of to loop cards in one turn but it is not practical. You need too many cards to get it started and there are too many commonly played cards that stop it.
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I don't see how you can do that in two rescues and one side battle but I could be wrong. Currently I am sitting on a combo that locks my opponent out across multiple turns, but in my playtesting seem to be impractical. But yah never know.
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I was told by an Elder (I believe it was Jordan) at the t2 only last year that Consider the Lillies was an exchange card even though it doesn't say exchange. I disagreed, but I didn't ask anyone else because it wasn't important to me.
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I don't see how you can do that in two rescues and one side battle but I could be wrong. Currently I am sitting on a combo that locks my opponent out across multiple turns, but in my playtesting seem to be impractical. But yah never know.
Jonathan wasn't saying he could do the full discard in one turn but rather that he can set it up in one turn. I can see how his post could be interpreted that way. I just know what he is talking about since we worked on that deck together 2 seasons ago. Alas, those were the days when Jonathan, Matt, and I were blasted for making awesome combo decks...
Kirk
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I distinctly remember a ruling saying that "withdraw and return all enhancement to hand" abilities do not return cards of the same title (i.e.: Highway can't return another copy of Highway).
That was not the ruling. This was one of the proposed rulings to stop the recursion combo-decks--and the change that I was the strongest proponent of--but it was never accepted as an official rule.
The complaint with this as a possible rule was that it did nothing to prevent someone from using Highway to return Stillness (or similar) to hand, and then playing Stillness to recur Highway. I pointed out that since no one had ever done that it was kind of a silly concern. Nevertheless, this was overruled and they went with the errata that Kirk gave.
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I don't see how you can do that in two rescues and one side battle but I could be wrong.
Jonathan wasn't saying he could do the full discard in one turn but rather that he can set it up in one turn.
Sort of. It is possible to do in one turn but in practice would probably require a turn to help set it up.
Basically: You rescue with Jacob, play Obedience of Noah, choose an immune guy to block, play Coat of Many colors, play The Long Day, Play Tithe and place Obedience of Noah on a hero in territory, play Search and search for the rest of your Searches and Book of Jasher's, then play Stillness to get them back and make the next rescue. There are of course many variations in exact play and order.
In the next attempt, you use your searches to get what you need to repeat the process. You probably get Increasing Numbers? to place 2 heros in territory, search for another immune blocker, Moses and Elders or Jubilee to get what you need out of discard, Taking Egypt's Wealth or Third Heaven? to clear opponent's hand, card of choice to clear evil characters in their territory, etc. Once you've got what you need, then on the 3rd or 4th attempt you get 4 copies of Warriors Spear? and start discarding their deck. At 8 cards at a time, it might take 10 more cycles to get rid of their deck.
The previous version was far more efficient, faster, had more options, could include 5 copies, and didn't have as many cards that could stop it (Covenant with Death, Iron Pan, etc).
I built it, but I haven't bothered to play it because I doubt it will work very often and if I somehow miraculously got it to then they will just change something else to stop it. Good luck to you if you find a combo deck that does work!
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I don't see how you can do that in two rescues and one side battle but I could be wrong.
Jonathan wasn't saying he could do the full discard in one turn but rather that he can set it up in one turn.
Sort of. It is possible to do in one turn but in practice would probably require a turn to help set it up.
Basically: You rescue with Jacob, play Obedience of Noah, choose an immune guy to block, play Coat of Many colors, play The Long Day, Play Tithe and place Obedience of Noah on a hero in territory, play Search and search for the rest of your Searches and Book of Jasher's, then play Stillness to get them back and make the next rescue. There are of course many variations in exact play and order.
In the next attempt, you use your searches to get what you need to repeat the process. You probably get Increasing Numbers? to place 2 heros in territory, search for another immune blocker, Moses and Elders or Jubilee to get what you need out of discard, Taking Egypt's Wealth or Third Heaven? to clear opponent's hand, card of choice to clear evil characters in their territory, etc. Once you've got what you need, then on the 3rd or 4th attempt you get 4 copies of Warriors Spear? and start discarding their deck. At 8 cards at a time, it might take 10 more cycles to get rid of their deck.
The previous version was far more efficient, faster, had more options, could include 5 copies, and didn't have as many cards that could stop it (Covenant with Death, Iron Pan, etc).
I built it, but I haven't bothered to play it because I doubt it will work very often and if I somehow miraculously got it to then they will just change something else to stop it. Good luck to you if you find a combo deck that does work!
Yup. that is it. Good choice for EC to block is:
The Terrifying Beast (RA)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange/Gray • Ability: 11 / 12 • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard a Greek. Immune to blue brigade. May band to a Roman Emperor. • Identifiers: OT Male Beast (Demon), Rome • Verse: Daniel 7:7 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)
b/c of the immune to blue ability of course!