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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: batman6768 on December 28, 2009, 02:29:23 PM
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how does prophets work with hidden treasures and ambush the red card that places a hero face down and the hero flips when a blocker is presented?
does the ability of the hidden treasures ever get activated?
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Interesting question... ;D
I would think that the answer is "no" since the only identifier known about the face-down card is that it is a male hero. The only way around that is if the term "begin" could be used after he is flipped, but that may cause issues with other combos involving Hidden Treasures. For now, "begins" would refer to the presentation of a hero, which is before a blocker is presented.
We'll have to wait for the official ruling. :-\
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Hey,
When the battle begins the hero is face down and thus has no brigade, so the condition on Hidden Treasures of "if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle" is not satisfied. So Hidden Treasures does nothing.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I beg to differ. Unless the rule has been changed surreptitiously for what constitutes presenting a hero, i.e. all special abilities must complete, then you present your face-down hero, your opponent presents a blocker, and you flip your hero face-up, hero is now presented so {click} goes the trigger on Hidden Treasures. :)
Present Hero
You begin a rescue attempt or battle challenge by placing a Hero in the Field of Battle. The Hero can be played from your hand or your territory. Some Heroes have a special ability printed over the picture on the card. This special ability does not become active until the Hero enters battle. Once the Hero enters battle, the special ability is activated simultaneously. The instructions on the card must be applied at that moment. If the special ability includes the word “may,” you can choose to activate the special ability or skip it for that battle. Once the Hero has entered battle and special ability completed, he has begun the battle. At this point, declare your intentions to make a rescue attempt or battle challenge.
Ambush
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up. • Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:2
Hidden Treasures
Type: Artifact • Brigade: • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle, you may play an Enhancement or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Obadiah 1:6
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Hey,
Unless the rule has been changed surreptitiously for what constitutes presenting a hero, i.e. all special abilities must complete
I'm going to have to choose the surreptitious change option on that one. Although I'm not sure how surreptitious it is, I've been claiming for years that special abilities completing is not a condition for the hero being in battle/presented.
Also the one relevant sentence from the rulebook that you quoted
Once the Hero enters battle, the special ability is activated simultaneously.
conflicts with something I said two days ago
Nothing in Redemption happens Simultaneously.
Albeit, generally speaking the rulebook takes precedence over me. The issue here being simultaneous actions, which four years ago we were okay with, but after several sticky and problematic issues arose we have come to dislike simultaneous-ness. New Jerusalem is the only simultaneous thing left in the game because it has the word simultaneously in it's special ability.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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but cards that are face down are technically out of play right?
so you couldn't have a brigade. wouldn't the battle begin when the hero is presented?
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The battle begins when the hero enters battle, not the EC. An 'Ambushed' hero is presented, but has no identifier other than "male hero" until he is flipped face up, which unfortunately does not happen until the EC is presented. By then, the battle is well under way.
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This is no different than a provisioned green prophet getting to choose the blocker prior to using Hidden Treasures. All abilities on the hero must complete, including gained abilities.
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thats what I thought. the gained ability would go off before hidden treasures
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This is no different than a provisioned green prophet getting to choose the blocker prior to using Hidden Treasures. All abilities on the hero must complete, including gained abilities.
It's not the same, because Provisions grants an instant ability, while Ambush grants a triggered ability. Hidden Treasures is also triggered. Provisions triggers HT, but Ambush does not.
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Hey,
This is no different than a provisioned green prophet getting to choose the blocker prior to using Hidden Treasures. All abilities on the hero must complete, including gained abilities.
Actually, in the provisions example, Hidden Treasures triggers before the choose the blocker ability happens, but it has to wait in line to take effect and thus happens after the choose the blocker ability.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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uh, why wouldnt ambush be a triggered ability?
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uh, why wouldnt ambush be a triggered ability?
Who said that it wasn't?
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This is no different than a provisioned green prophet getting to choose the blocker prior to using Hidden Treasures. All abilities on the hero must complete, including gained abilities.
It's not the same, because Provisions grants an instant ability, while Ambush grants a triggered ability. Hidden Treasures is also triggered. Provisions triggers HT, but Ambush does not.
Regardless if it is triggered or not, it is a gained ability. The hero's abilities must complete prior to Hidden Treasures triggered ability.
Hey,
This is no different than a provisioned green prophet getting to choose the blocker prior to using Hidden Treasures. All abilities on the hero must complete, including gained abilities.
Actually, in the provisions example, Hidden Treasures triggers before the choose the blocker ability happens, but it has to wait in line to take effect and thus happens after the choose the blocker ability.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Semantics. But you basically just stated the same thing I have been saying for the Ambush example.
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uh, why wouldnt ambush be a triggered ability?
Who said that it wasn't?
im sorry, i meant to say why isnt provisions a triggered ability?
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All abilities on the hero must complete, including gained abilities.
That doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that all triggered abilities must complete before the battle begins (which is the trigger for HT)? So, Obadiah can discard a PG EC who blocked him after battle and then trigger HT?
Obadiah
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 9 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes in play are immune to pale green brigade. If blocked by a pale green Evil Character, discard it after the battle (regardless of immunity). • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Prophet • Verse: Obadiah 1:8 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 3)
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im sorry, i meant to say why isnt provisions a triggered ability?
Oh, I see. ;D
Provisions is triggered, but it triggers when the hero is presented, which is the beginning of battle. Therefore, HT also triggers. Ambush does not trigger until after the EC is presented. By then, the battle has already begun and HT is not triggered.
I was trying to distinguish the two. Sorry for the confusion.
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i always thought ambush was a very tricky card. it should probably just be banned. :)
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All abilities on the hero must complete, including gained abilities.
That doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that all triggered abilities must complete before the battle begins (which is the trigger for HT)? So, Obadiah can discard a PG EC who blocked him after battle and then trigger HT?
Obadiah
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 9 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes in play are immune to pale green brigade. If blocked by a pale green Evil Character, discard it after the battle (regardless of immunity). • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Prophet • Verse: Obadiah 1:8 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 3)
Not all, but definitely this one. A face-down hero is not in play and therefore is not in battle, and therefore is NOT presented. The triggered ability that the hero gains from Ambush must complete before a hero is considered presented.
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A face-down hero is not in play and therefore is not in battle, and therefore is NOT presented.
I beg to differ. Ambush specifies that the face-down card is a hero, and that the hero enters battle, which is the definition of presented. If there were no presentation of a hero, why would your opponent present an EC or choose not to block?
Ambush
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up. • Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:2
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Hey,
Not all, but definitely this one. A face-down hero is not in play and therefore is not in battle, and therefore is NOT presented. The triggered ability that the hero gains from Ambush must complete before a hero is considered presented.
But if it's not presented until it's flipped over, and it's not flipped over until it's blocked, and it's not blocked until it's presented...
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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how in the world is the hero gonna ineter battle cuz in ordor to inter batlle it has to be in play.so let's eratta or ban the 2 facedown setasides.
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A face-down hero is not in play and therefore is not in battle, and therefore is NOT presented.
I beg to differ. Ambush specifies that the face-down card is a hero, and that the hero enters battle, which is the definition of presented. If there were no presentation of a hero, why would your opponent present an EC or choose not to block?
Ambush
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up. • Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:2
Okay I went back and re-read some of the posts many have made and I think I understand what you're missing. Yes, there is a trigger on Ambush. But no, it is not similar to the trigger you see on Obadiah. The trigger on Ambush is just a pause in Ambush's special ability. The special ability cannot complete until the trigger is released. The reason we know this is because there used to be long threads about what should be done if the opponent never presents an EC, or in other words what if the trigger is never released. The PTB decided the trigger would be met either by the opponent presenting an EC or declining. You cannot insert any abilities during the pause.
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You cannot insert any abilities during the pause.
Are you saying that the EC's SA does not activate when he enters battle until after the "paused" Ambush ability completes? I was definitely not aware of that ruling. I'm pretty sure there are other situations where an EC's SA not activating until triggers complete (paused or otherwise) have been ruled differently.
If you could link me to said discussion threads, I would be appreciative. I'd like to understand the Ambush ruling more clearly so I don't goof up in a tournament.
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so what if they blocked with the new txp nebechunezzer? would the ambushed hero flip before the search or after?
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oiy. too many ambush headaches.
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You cannot insert any abilities during the pause.
Are you saying that the EC's SA does not activate when he enters battle until after the "paused" Ambush ability completes? I was definitely not aware of that ruling. I'm pretty sure there are other situations where an EC's SA not activating until triggers complete (paused or otherwise) have been ruled differently.
If you could link me to said discussion threads, I would be appreciative. I'd like to understand the Ambush ruling more clearly so I don't goof up in a tournament.
Umm, no. "during the pause" <> "end of pause"
But of course, when the end of the pause starts the EC SA kicks in and finally the last part of Ambush. No where can another special ability, triggered or not, be inserted in that string. So HT fires after hero is flipped and completes its SA.
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so what if they blocked with the new txp nebechunezzer? would the ambushed hero flip before the search or after?
These are the kind of situations I was referring to. There are a plethora of EC SAs that are affected by this "paused" Ambush.
But of course, when the end of the pause starts the EC SA kicks in and finally the last part of Ambush. No where can another special ability, triggered or not, be inserted in that string. So HT fires after hero is flipped and completes its SA.
I still need a link. "Pause" is not in the REG, so I need some kind of official statement from the PTB that I can read so I can get a better grasp of this ruling. Right now, it makes absolutely no sense to me.
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But of course, when the end of the pause starts the EC SA kicks in and finally the last part of Ambush. No where can another special ability, triggered or not, be inserted in that string. So HT fires after hero is flipped and completes its SA.
I still need a link. "Pause" is not in the REG, so I need some kind of official statement from the PTB that I can read so I can get a better grasp of this ruling. Right now, it makes absolutely no sense to me.
The "pause" is a decision-making process by the opponent. It's no different than the "pause" due to shuffling, or selecting, or any other action or decision made by a player. As Sir Nobody has mentioned before, there really is no such thing as "simultaneous". However, special abilities cannot insert themselves into another special ability regardless if there is another trigger.
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STAMP, you're a great guy. I trust your judgment, even if I don't agree with it. All I am asking for is a link to the discussion you were referring to. I have simply found that reading the posts of the PTBs when they make a ruling helps me see their thinking as clearly as possible. I find this helps me gain the "bigger picture" so I can make more accurate rulings at my tournaments.
As an example, I asked about how ties were ruled for Grapes. The answer I got would not have answered a similar question about Grapes. However, the person provided a link to Rob's ruling which was stated in such a way that it answered both questions clearly (in my mind).
I think I am understanding what you are saying, but if I can see all the responses from the PTBs, then I will not likely have to ask again in a slightly different situation.
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Very good points, YMT. I enjoy your questions because they get to the crux of the matter. :)
I will do some searching but I'm not optimistic that I'll find the discussions I'm seeking. In any case, Ambush has had many interesting and thought-provoking threads over the years.
I, too, initially felt that HT would not trigger in the example that started this thread. But after banging the cobwebs out of my head and recalling some of the previous rulings regarding resolving special abilities and previous rulings on Ambush, I am confident that HT does trigger. I think the part that got me at first was the fact that Ambush allows for another SA to be inserted (the EC SA). We all know that you cannot insert another special ability into one that is resolving, but Ambush's SA overrides this, similar to how an SA can override a game rule.
Bottom line, a hero gains the ability from Ambush, which has two triggers, one that controls the order of abilities on the hero and the other that allows an EC's SA to be inserted in that order of abilities. Here's how I see it:
1. Player triggers the first ability allowing a face-down hero to enter battle.
2. Site access is activated.
3. Player waits for opponent's decision (Ambush is still active and resolving).
4. Opponent decides to present an EC. Ambush allows the EC's SA to resolve.
5. Ambush completes its SA when the hero is flipped.
6. Now the rest of the hero's SA is completed in the order of abilities in the rules.
7. Hero's SA is complete. Hero is officially presented.
HT tries to trigger in step 1 but the hero is not green, actually triggers in step 5. if it is green but cannot resolve until step 7.
The special thing about Ambush is that it controls, or re-orders, the order of abilities. We are used to the normal order where gained abilities come after the hero's SA, minus the banding and CTB. But Ambush changes the order to start with the gained ability, then possible EC special abilities are added, followed by hero's special abilities. Hope this helps!
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Hey,
1. Player triggers the first ability allowing a face-down hero to enter battle.
HT triggers in step 1. but cannot resolve until step 7.
In step 1 the hero is face-down, therefore it's not green brigade, so how does it trigger HT?
7. Hero's SA is complete. Hero is officially presented.
I still disagree with this.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
1. Player triggers the first ability allowing a face-down hero to enter battle.
HT triggers in step 1. but cannot resolve until step 7.
In step 1 the hero is face-down, therefore it's not green brigade, so how does it trigger HT?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Sorry. Good catch. Fixed.
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I still do not understand....
does HT work with Ambush or not?
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I still do not understand....
Join the club.... ;)
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I still do not understand....
does HT work with Ambush or not?
propbly not.
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I still do not understand....
does HT work with Ambush or not?
I believe within the framework of rules it does indeed work. :)
That is, if you flip a green hero. ;)
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of course but another qusetion when does banding come in.... after HT or before?
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Well if you band then HT doesn't work. ;)