Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Rawrlolsauce! on April 09, 2010, 11:51:10 PM
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New question: I attack with my epic blue hero. The only lost soul is in my opponent's Hormah. They block with some newb. Their newb dies by the numbers. Does Hormah get shuffled before I get my soul?
I thought no, beings after you die by the numbers nothing can happen before you give your opponent a soul (be it Hormah or a dominant). We ended up ruling it that it was placed on the bottom because it was triggered? Something like that.
REG isn't opening for me for some reason.... can't post abilities
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also, can you add it to battle at any time?
also, if jc rescues with Habakuk, uses HT and plays a Search, can I DoN and negate the searching?
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Another question: Is there a deciding factor for T2 Multi after total souls rescued? We had three people each with 3 points and 13 total souls rescued.
yeah...play another round!
No seriously, you go to who beat who in the games played. If one player was not beaten by the other players, that person is first, then it proceeds on from there. If they all beat each other (over three rounds) then ...play ... another ... round...
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Player A beat player B and C
Player B did not beat player A or C
Player C beat player A.
Playing another round is not an option >:c. Although I really don't think head to head is used in multi.
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I attack with Jacob banded to some angel and add promise land to battle. Jacob is discarded. Does Promised Land get a counter after battle? Ring Wraith and I said no, our judge and former judge said yes.
I believe yes. Jacob only can use it without limit. Technically, (I believe), if you don't add a counter, the angel never had access, only Jacob. It seems correctly to me that a counter would be added if the angel needed access.
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My take on it:
Jacob enters battle. It targets Jacob to give him access. All cards in battle have access beings it is a multi color site. Jacob has access due to the special ability also. Jacob is dead. All cards still have access beings it is a multi color site, but Jacob was the only one using the special ability. Therefore, no counter is added.
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Jacob enters battle. It targets Jacob to give him access. All cards in battle have access beings it is a multi color site. Jacob has access due to the special ability also. Jacob is dead. All cards still have access beings it is a multi color site, but Jacob was the only one using the special ability. Therefore, no counter is added.
This has been addressed in a relatively recent thread which I cannot find. According to this passage which Gabe presented, this is essentially how it works:
Special abilities on sites are not affected by character or enhancement cards. New Jerusalem (Site Card), Dragon Raid, and Promised Land are mainly used offensively as “access sites” and therefore their special abilities are written to take effect when they enter battle and at no other time. All the single color sites are mainly used defensively as “lost soul sites”. The special abilities on single color sites like Nero’s Realm and Leper Colony are written to take effect when they are holding a lost soul. Therefore, if you are using an “access site” defensively or a “lost soul site” offensively the special abilities don’t activate.
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also, can you add it to battle at any time?
also, if jc rescues with Habakuk, uses HT and plays a Search, can I DoN and negate the searching?
Yes, you can add it to battle any time (as long as it is in the territory). If you add it when Jacob is in there, it gets no counter, but if you add it when he's not, it does.
You have to DoN HT before they attack. Because as soon as the Green Prophet enters battle, HT triggers and it's ability must complete, and the ability to play an enhancement cannot be interrupted. So even if Search was negatable, DoN wouldn't negate the search in this case.
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Wow. We played the HT wrong, luckily he won that round anyway.
New question: I attack with my epic blue hero. The only lost soul is in my opponent's Hormah. They block with some newb. Their newb dies by the numbers. Does Hormah get shuffled before I get my soul?
I thought no, beings after you die by the numbers nothing can happen before you give your opponent a soul (be it Hormah or a dominant). We ended up ruling it that it was placed on the bottom because it was triggered? Something like that.
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Wow. We played the HT wrong, luckily he won that round anyway.
New question: I attack with my epic blue hero. The only lost soul is in my opponent's Hormah. They block with some newb. Their newb dies by the numbers. Does Hormah get shuffled before I get my soul?
I thought no, beings after you die by the numbers nothing can happen before you give your opponent a soul (be it Hormah or a dominant). We ended up ruling it that it was placed on the bottom because it was triggered? Something like that.
had we played it right, he might have rescued the lost soul right then and there, giving me outright second. :P
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had we played it right, he might have rescued the lost soul right then and there, giving me outright second. :P
Hey, I forgot.... who did we end up giving the TXP to? >:c
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New question: I attack with my epic blue hero. The only lost soul is in my opponent's Hormah. They block with some newb. Their newb dies by the numbers. Does Hormah get shuffled before I get my soul?
I'm fairly certain that since Hormah is a triggered ability, it goes under draw pile after the EC dies. But I can't be 100% certain.
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had we played it right, he might have rescued the lost soul right then and there, giving me outright second. :P
Hey, I forgot.... who did we end up giving the TXP to? >:c
true, Jason would have received it because I had a paper...but who needs Rash Oath anyway?
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I'll give you 1x wrapper for it and 4x Land Disputes. Good deal.
I still don't understand the whole crazy Hormah thing. I'll probably sit here and spam until someone posts some backing, either words from an admin or the REG.
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Player A beat player B and C
Player B did not beat player A or C
Player C beat player A.
If another round is impossible, then A should get 1st for beating both the others. C should get 2nd for beating one of the others. And B should get 3rd for beating neither of the others.
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Player A beat player B and C
Player B did not beat player A or C
Player C beat player A.
Note that this is not explicitly covered in the rules, so any solution offered is going to be a suggestion. Making judgment calls such as this is why hosts get paid the big bucks.
My first instinct would be to declare a three way tie for first, and give Player A the first shot at the winner's promo.
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we declared a three way tie and played Rock Paper Scissors for the TexP.
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Hormah is a trigger ability. So when their ec dies, it and it's contents go to the bottom. Also if he dies, he can still play dominants before he has a chance to give you a lost soul since they can be played at any time. If I am correct you have a battle resolution phase where you can do something before the lost soul is given. I'm not 100% on that...
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Hormah is a trigger ability. So when their ec dies, it and it's contents go to the bottom. Also if he dies,...
he could also use artifacts. For instance, he could use Unknown Nation to bring in another EC and keep fighting. He could use the curse (Madness I think) to turn into a demon that could continue the battle. He could use Unholy Writ to capture your GC. He could bring in another EC who was face-down on Hormah (since you have access). Lots of options to continue the battle after the first EC dies :)
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Hormah is a trigger ability. So when their ec dies, it and it's contents go to the bottom. Also if he dies, he can still play dominants before he has a chance to give you a lost soul since they can be played at any time. If I am correct you have a battle resolution phase where you can do something before the lost soul is given. I'm not 100% on that...
It has been definitively ruled (at least three times since over the past two years) that if all blockers die by the numbers and you discard them, you cannot play a Dominant (i.e., CM or Burial) to prevent the rescue. The battle ends immediately at the discard.
Prof Underwood, if I am not allowed to play a dominant in this situation why can I play Unholy Writ or Unknown Nation or ...?
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I disagree with Prof/3-Liner and agree with MJB. You'd have to use Writ or Unknown Nation before your EC dies via the numbers.
This was kind of a major ruling. Luckily it didn't affect the results :o.
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Redemption® Rulebook > Diagram of a Turn > Battle Resolution > Hero Wins
Your Hero wins if one of these conditions is met:
• The Hero’s strength is greater than or equal to the Evil Character’s toughness, and the Evil Character’s strength is less than the Hero’s toughness. The Evil Character is discarded, and your Hero withdraws to your territory.
• The Hero ignores the Evil Character. The Hero and the Evil Character each withdraw to his owner’s territory.
• All blocking Evil Characters were removed from battle. Surviving Heroes return to their owners’ territories.
All enhancements played during the Battle Phase (except set-aside or weapon-class enhancements, or cards placed on other cards during battle) are discarded to the respective owner’s discard pile. Assuming no dominants are played during Battle Resolution to prevent it, the rescue attempt is successful, and your opponent must select and surrender to you one available Lost Soul from his Land of Bondage.
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Based on this quote from the Rulebook (p.30), you can indeed play a dominant after the EC dies by the numbers. Also, if this is a prioritized list (which is how I read it), then the handing over of a lost soul would happen after the EC dies and is discarded, so Hormah would shuffle with the LS.
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Wow. I really think the REG is wrong there, I just can't remember who said that winning BTN doesn't allow dominants. Time to go look.
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After searching a while, I found this thread http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15834.0. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15834.0.) Schaef answers my question there.
Thanks for everyone's input.
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Wow. I really think the REG is wrong there, I just can't remember who said that winning BTN doesn't allow dominants. Time to go look.
That quote is not from the REG, it is from the 10th Anniversary Rulebook. Schaef's comments in the thread you linked seem to indicate that you cannot play a dominant during Battle Resolution, which is contradictory to the Rulebook. Were Schaef's comments an official overruling of the rulebook?
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Wow. I really think the REG is wrong there, I just can't remember who said that winning BTN doesn't allow dominants. Time to go look.
That quote is not from the REG, it is from the 10th Anniversary Rulebook. Schaef's comments in the thread you linked seem to indicate that you cannot play a dominant during Battle Resolution, which is contradictory to the Rulebook. Were Schaef's comments an official overruling of the rulebook?
Sorry, you're right. I didn't read the source. ;)
I'm not sure if it is consider to be an overruling, but I for one would believe Schaef more than the rulebook TBH. We might want to seek confirmation, though.
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After searching a while, I found this thread http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15834.0. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15834.0.) Schaef answers my question there.
Thanks for reminding me of that thread. I guess the important thing there is that if you actually let your EC die by the numbers then you are really saying that you don't have anything else to do. If you brought in another EC with Unknown Nation, or from being face down on the site, then you wouldn't discard your original EC first. In fact you might not even be losing by the numbers anymore.
However, the overall ruling is the same and that is that the LS in Hormah goes to the bottom of the deck before attacker can rescue it.
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The 10th Anniversary rulebook was printed in 2005.
The release of Priests and the coinciding rule changes about Dominant play were made in 2006.
The statement in the rulebook is obsolete because Dominants now follow the 8th Commandment. Son of God and NJ must be played at the same time by the same player, you cannot use Son of God or Burial in the middle of shuffling Lost Souls, and you cannot play Dominants to affect the outcome of the battle once the battle is declared "ended" and moves into Battle Resolution.
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Thanks Schaef! Now I know. ;D
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[Were Schaef's comments an official overruling of the rulebook?
Schaef's comments were merely echoing those in an earlier (and apparently purged thread) which ended with Bryon ruling in exactly the same way. I remember it well, because I was the person arguing (somewhat fervently) against the decision.
While I understand why it is ruled this way, I still dislike the ruling because it strikes me as one that in antithetical to the spirit of the game. A new player learns--probably the hard way--that their opponent can play Christian Martyr or Burial after they use Angel of the Lord or a battle-winner and prevent them from rescuing a lost soul. Later they try the same trick after discarding their EC by the numbers only to have the judge called over and their CM made basically useless by this rule. This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.
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This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.
Exactly
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The 10th Anniversary rulebook was printed in 2005.
The release of Priests and the coinciding rule changes about Dominant play were made in 2006.
The statement in the rulebook is obsolete because Dominants now follow the 8th Commandment. Son of God and NJ must be played at the same time by the same player, you cannot use Son of God or Burial in the middle of shuffling Lost Souls, and you cannot play Dominants to affect the outcome of the battle once the battle is declared "ended" and moves into Battle Resolution.
Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?
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Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?
The key here is to play your doms before you "let your ec die" :)
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Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?
At least one of us is confused, so I will attempt to clarify: Removing or otherwise incapacitating an opposing character by a special ability does not end the battle (unless the card says so). Unknown Nation can still be used if your opponent plays AotL or a battle-winner which you are unable to negate. However, if you are losing by the numbers and it is your initiative, you have the choice as to whether or not you want to play something. If you choose to die, then you are signifying that the battle is over and your opponent has won. And so, there is no excuse for saying, "Oh, by the way, Dominant." Get it? (I think I do. :P)
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Later they try the same trick after discarding their EC by the numbers only to have the judge called over and their CM made basically useless by this rule. This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.
I disagree with the idea that it does not promote fun and fellowship to tell a player that the rules incentivize him to play a card that defeats you without having to lose his own card in the process. I would think he would be rather pleased to learn that this rule works to his benefit.
The only people who have their fun truly hampered are the people who try to game the system so that their opponent's characters are on both sides of the battle, and they are trying to kill both of that player's characters AND prevent the rescue AND prevent him from doing anything about it. My sympathy for them is appropriately diminished.
If he really wanted to do that, he would play Babel, band in all of his opponents' ECs plus his own Rab/2K Horses, then play DoU. Then Martyr the Hero just because.
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I lol'd. You're sporadically really really funny.
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Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?
Removing or otherwise incapacitating an opposing character by a special ability does not end the battle (unless the card says so). Unknown Nation can still be used if your opponent plays AotL or a battle-winner which you are unable to negate. However, if you are losing by the numbers and it is your initiative, you have the choice as to whether or not you want to play something. If you choose to die, then you are signifying that the battle is over and your opponent has won. And so, there is no excuse for saying, "Oh, by the way, Dominant." Get it? (I think I do. :P)
Just so! BubbleBoy is correct not only on the ruling but the reasons behind the ruling.
Given this, if you can't even play Dominants, I do not believe you could play Unholy Writ or Unknown Nation or... I am unsure about what happens with triggered abilities such as Hormah, however. I believe that as soon as the trigger is tripped (i.e., the EC is discarded), the SA would carry through (i.e., Hormah and any lost soul gets put under the deck). Schaef, could you comment on that?
[Response on fun and fellowship deleted. I'm just adding the quote to provide context for my comment--mjb]
I agree with Pol.
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Later they try the same trick after discarding their EC by the numbers only to have the judge called over and their CM made basically useless by this rule. This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.
I disagree with the idea that it does not promote fun and fellowship to tell a player that the rules incentivize him to play a card that defeats you without having to lose his own card in the process. I would think he would be rather pleased to learn that this rule works to his benefit.
The only people who have their fun truly hampered are the people who try to game the system so that their opponent's characters are on both sides of the battle, and they are trying to kill both of that player's characters AND prevent the rescue AND prevent him from doing anything about it. My sympathy for them is appropriately diminished.
If he really wanted to do that, he would play Babel, band in all of his opponents' ECs plus his own Rab/2K Horses, then play DoU. Then Martyr the Hero just because.
but why stop there? why not Babel in all of their ECs, and Esau and a Rab + Horses, play a Seige, then a Korah's Rebellion. with Asherah Pole active, of course!
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but why stop there? why not Babel in all of their ECs, and Esau and a Rab + Horses, play a Seige, then a Korah's Rebellion. with Asherah Pole active, of course!
... because banding in all those ECs will give your opponent initiative. You only get one play after the band with Horses, so it has to be one that stops the rescue. Korah's Rebellion works almost as well but has that annoying quality of being in the brown brigade, which does not have a horsey card unless I'm forgetting one, and does not match up with the pale green character that both plays the next Enhancement AND cannot be interrupted. Not to mention you're adding to a combo that already requires like six cards.
Given this, if you can't even play Dominants, I do not believe you could play Unholy Writ or Unknown Nation or... I am unsure about what happens with triggered abilities such as Hormah, however. I believe that as soon as the trigger is tripped (i.e., the EC is discarded), the SA would carry through (i.e., Hormah and any lost soul gets put under the deck).
Correct. If it is discarded by an instant ability, say someone Angel'd your Esau, you could trigger Hormah even though Rabby is still in the battle.
In fact, if someone played Authority promo on me, I could discard all my ECs as required, trigger Hormah, then use Unknown Nation to pull out another EC and keep on going!
There are two things to ending the battle that require to pay really close attention. First, while you can only play characters and Enhancements at certain times based on the rules of battle and initiative, there are several play you can make that do not require it to be your turn or even to have initiative. Dominants are the obvious example, but it can also apply to many kinds of cards sitting active in your territory waiting for you to trigger them. Artifacts like Unholy Writ are examples of this. You can play as much of those as you want, all you want, until the battle is ended by an "end the battle" special ability, or all players in the game agree that they're all done playing cards this battle. This applies not only to the two players battling, but also if another in a multi-player match wants to use his Christian Martyr to stop someone else's rescue.
So yes, you can play your Authority promo on my EC. And I can play Burial on my Lost Soul even after you killed my EC with a special ability. And you can play your Harvest Time to fish out another Lost Soul. And I can play Unknown Nation to bring another character into battle. And you can play Angel of the Lord on my new EC. And then I can play Christian Martyr on your Hero. So even though you played a card we refer to as a "battle-winner" - and for the most part it is - players are never denied the chance to play these other cards if they are able, and it goes on for as long as someone still has a card they want to play.
The second thing is that when numbers only are used to determine initiative, an Evil Character is still considered to be in battle even if losing, and can still play Enhancements and so forth. An Evil Character losing by the numbers only dies when the battle has ended. Play goes on until the players agree that the battle has ended, and then in Battle Resolution you determine that the Evil Character was defeated, and so is discarded by game rule. And because the EC was discarded as a result of the battle ending, it is too late now to play anything else to affect the battle.
So that's the trade-off you get: you can play all the cards you want until it is agreed that no more cards will be played this battle, and then after that you cannot play any cards that affect the outcome of the battle.
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but why stop there? why not Babel in all of their ECs, and Esau and a Rab + Horses, play a Seige, then a Korah's Rebellion. with Asherah Pole active, of course!
... because banding in all those ECs will give your opponent initiative. You only get one play after the band with Horses, so it has to be one that stops the rescue. Korah's Rebellion works almost as well but has that annoying quality of being in the brown brigade, which does not have a horsey card unless I'm forgetting one, and does not match up with the pale green character that both plays the next Enhancement AND cannot be interrupted. Not to mention you're adding to a combo that already requires like six cards.
I wasn't saying it would be reliable, I was saying it'd be fun. which would mean you could throw in a Nebby and Swift Horses, because this is all hypothetical.
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The second thing is that when numbers only are used to determine initiative, an Evil Character is still considered to be in battle even if losing, and can still play Enhancements and so forth. An Evil Character losing by the numbers only dies when the battle has ended. Play goes on until the players agree that the battle has ended, and then in Battle Resolution you determine that the Evil Character was defeated, and so is discarded by game rule. And because the EC was discarded as a result of the battle ending, it is too late now to play anything else to affect the battle.
Does that include Hormah triggering? Or do cards triggered by the discard of an EC trigger immediately upon the sole remaining EC(s) being discarded because of numbers?
I think you are saying Hormah's SA would not take effect until after the battle resolution of a by the numbers EC loss, but I want to make sure.
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I think you are saying Hormah's SA would not take effect until after the battle resolution of a by the numbers EC loss, but I want to make sure.
I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but Schaef said this in the old thread:
Giving the Lost Soul is always the last thing that happens.
Hormah would shuffle after the EC dies by numbers, but before the Lost Soul is awarded. Of course, this may not have been your question.
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Hormah would shuffle after the EC dies by numbers, but before the Lost Soul is awarded. Of course, this may not have been your question.
This is my question. Unfortunately, this interpretation is the opposite of what I thought Stephen was saying just above.
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I think you are saying Hormah's SA would not take effect until after the battle resolution of a by the numbers EC loss, but I want to make sure.
It would be triggered by the discard but the fact that the discard triggers it takes it off the table so you can't grab the Lost Soul.
This is similar to Raider's Camp, where the ability to release is triggered as part of the Battle Resolution, and "insteads" the Heroes back to you in place of the Lost Soul.
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Excellent. Thank you.