Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: crustpope on November 01, 2009, 10:00:32 PM
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I have two questions here about this scenario. My opponent has placed Abom in my territory. I have Unholy Writ up and my opponent attacks with Generous widow. He uses abom to d/c my Writ but I want to use writ to capture generous widow.
1.Which triggers first? (can I capture Generous widow before he Abom's my Unholy writ, and if so, why not?)
Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
The Generous Widow
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: All players must discard two cards from hand and draw two cards. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT Female Human • Verse: Luke 21:4
Abomination of Desolation
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Greek, place in opponent's territory. Each time opponent draws cards (except during draw phase), you may discard a card in that territory except a Lost Soul. • Attributes: False Religious Practice, Limit of one in territory • Identifiers: OT, False Religious Practice, Limit of one in territory • Verse: Daniel 11:31 •
second question, Even if he gets to d/c my unholy writ first, can I still use it to capture generous widow since it was not negated, (simply discarded) and it took place in the same phase (battle phase)
Thanks
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I believe in order for you to capture with uw, you have to let effects of inititive go through so the effect of the character would go, then that would cause abom and unholy to go. I believe. Please correct me if i am wrong. and for the second one, can you be more specific about that? What did he do to discard it?
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1. Generous Widow is not in battle for you to capture until her ability completes. When her ability completes, it triggers Abom which must then also complete before any other abilities can be inserted. In short, Abom before Writ.
2. No, because a requirement of using UW is to Discard it. You can't Discard cards that are already in the Discard pile.
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2. No, because a requirement of using UW is to Discard it. You can't Discard cards that are already in the Discard pile.
That is what I figured. My brain is hurting now...xp
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I don't think you can. He gets to respond his own action before you can, since both A-bom and UW are triggers.
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Unholy Writ has to wait for other abilities to complete before you can choose to use it. GW's discard/draw happens first. The draw from GW triggers Abom and that needs to complete before UW can be used.
I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.
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1. Generous Widow is not in battle for you to capture until her ability completes. When her ability completes, it triggers Abom which must then also complete before any other abilities can be inserted. In short, Abom before Writ.
Yes but as soon as her ability completes it SIMULTANEOUSLY fulfills the trigger for Unholy writ so why can I not use unholy writ at the same time that it is being discarded by my opponent uning the SA of Unholy Writ?
2. No, because a requirement of using UW is to Discard it. You can't Discard cards that are already in the Discard pile.
Yes, but the SA is still active since it has not been negated so why could I still not use it to capture Generous widow?
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I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.
This is an interesting point, I forgot that Unholy Writ doesn't say "do x to do y." I'd agree with this.
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Since Abom is a trigger, there would be no time for you to actually use uw in between GW and Abom. So it would have to follow abom.
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I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.
This is an interesting point, I forgot that Unholy Writ doesn't say "do x to do y." I'd agree with this.
I disagree with it. ;D
UW is not an ongoing ability that remains active until negated. UW is a "may" and an instant ability. I don't see how that would not require the card to be present in order to be activated. It seems more intuitive that it functions like a triggered ability, and you can't pull the trigger if you are not holding the gun. ;)
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lol I like that anonally. XD
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I don't think you can. He gets to respond his own action before you can, since both A-bom and UW are triggers.
Ok if you say he is responding to his own action, I will buy that...I dont LIKE it, but I will buy it. I think these type of ruling guidelines should be "officiallly" codified somewhere though so that when we find conflicting triggers like this we can have some way to rule on them.
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Since Abom is a trigger, there would be no time for you to actually use uw in between GW and Abom. So it would have to follow abom.
Yes Abom is a trigger, But putting a Hero into battle is also the trigger for UW and that trigger happened first. It just so happens that by drawing cards, I also trigger Abom and I am asking what the guidelines are for resolving these triggers, which in reality seem to be triggered at the same time, can be ruled upon for future games.
So far I like LN answer the best but that is like saying I like slapped in the face more than I like having my toenails pulled out with rusty pliers
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That is just like trying to use a dominant to interrupt inititive. You cannot do that. Just like trying to use effects in the middle of other effects. It just doesn't work.
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UW is not an ongoing ability that remains active until negated....
So according to this theory, you're saying that I must choose to use UW when the Hero first enters battle since the abilty of UW isn't active and ongoing? I'm not allowed to use it later in battle after my EC has been defeated?
I don't think you can. He gets to respond his own action before you can, since both A-bom and UW are triggers.
Who's responding to their own action? I assume it's the defender who has UW, not the person who owns GW and Abom. If that's the case the controller of UW hasn't caused any actions to be performed yet, it's all been abilities controlled by the rescuer.
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Unholy Writ has to wait for other abilities to complete before you can choose to use it. GW's discard/draw happens first. The draw from GW triggers Abom and that needs to complete before UW can be used.
I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.
But doesn't the fact that a hero enter battle satisfy the condition for Unholy Writ BEFORE GW's ability goes off? thus a hero is available to use writ on, and as that is happening I still have to draw 2 cards, which would trigger Abom but UW would already have went into effect and discarded...that makes the most sense to me...
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I thought you couldn't use another ability in the middle of another which is basically what that one is doing. I understand what you are trying to say. I could see this going either way. :-\
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But doesn't the fact that a hero enter battle satisfy the condition for Unholy Writ BEFORE GW's ability goes off?
I think the confusing thing here is "Redemption Time" vs. "Real Time" (http://cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=18403.msg289423#msg289423) (great explanation Tim).
In real time the first thing that happens in the Hero is physically placed in battle so it would appear that UW goes first.
In "Redemption time" these all happen at the same moment:
The Hero is placed in battle.
The Heroes abilities complete.
Abilities controled by the rescuing player that are trigger by the previous two items complete.
Those things are all tied to the same moment in Redemption time but they happen in a specific order, otherwise we'd have Mayhem!
Here's an example that I think we'll all agree on:
Green brigade prophet enters battle. The rescuer has Hidden Treasures active. The defender has Unholy Writ active. Don't we all agree that the rescuer gets to use Hidden Treasures before the defender can capture the Hero with Unholy Writ?
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That's the case of one artifact being triggered at the same time as the other. both the hero for Unholy Writ and a prophet for Hidden Treasures. As you bring your hero into battle, I should be able to use Writ as you use HT, but there's no Enhancement for your hero to play the enhancement on. I am all for hero abilities to complete before defender reacting, but not for territory cards or artifacts when other triggers in effect happen first.
Further: I do not understand how Tim's explanation of Redemption Time vs. Real Time applies here. To me that seems an argument for who to gets to negate who and when...
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It's the same as playing a dominant. You can't play Christian Martyr on a Hero in battle until after it's special ability is completely carried out. Once Ethiopian Treasurer comes into battle, you have to let him play the first enhancement. Then (and only then) can you play CM.
The same applies here with Unholy Writ. The Hero's ability (and all abilities that trigger as a result of that) must complete before any other play can be made.
Kevin Shride
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again I agree with special abilities on Heroes, but I don't understand why other abilities that are triggered by it immediately follow. triggered abilities from other sources (artifacts, covenants, TC) are not gained abilities, they are separate and should be treated as such...Explain..
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It's the same as playing a dominant. You can't play Christian Martyr on a Hero in battle until after it's special ability is completely carried out. Once Ethiopian Treasurer comes into battle, you have to let him play the first enhancement. Then (and only then) can you play CM.
The same applies here with Unholy Writ. The Hero's ability (and all abilities that trigger as a result of that) must complete before any other play can be made.
Kevin Shride
This I understand, but we still have the outstanding question of whether you can still use UW if it has already been Abom'ed since Abom only d/c's the card and does not negate the SA of that card.
So, speaking from a judges persepctive, are we going to use the "responding to own action" to unravel seemingly contradictory and simultaneous triggers from here on out?
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It's the same as playing a dominant. You can't play Christian Martyr on a Hero in battle until after it's special ability is completely carried out. Once Ethiopian Treasurer comes into battle, you have to let him play the first enhancement. Then (and only then) can you play CM.
The same applies here with Unholy Writ. The Hero's ability (and all abilities that trigger as a result of that) must complete before any other play can be made.
I disagree. The ET example doesn't really apply here because the enhancement you play with ET is not a trigger, it's just the proper resolving of his effect. This situation involves 2 cards that trigger seemingly simultaneously. The hero enters battle, each person draws, and her effect ends. At that point, the conditions for Writ and Abom are both met (hero in battle, and opponent drawing outside of draw phase). As you explained above, cards cannot be played/activated until other cards finish (in this case the hero's SA). As such, Abom's trigger cannot be pulled until the completion of the hero's effect, which is also when Writ's trigger is pulled, so neither of them is pulled "first". They both trigger at the same time, so the real question should primarily be which takes effect first, and then if Writ can still activate after being discarded but not negated only if Abom wins in the initiative race.
At least, that's what I see when I look at this situation.
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This I understand, but we still have the outstanding question of whether you can still use UW if it has already been Abom'ed since Abom only d/c's the card and does not negate the SA of that card.
Since Unholy Writ is not an ongoing ability, but a one-time use ability, its ability should not remain after it has been discarded. If it's not in play, you can't use it.
So, speaking from a judges persepctive, are we going to use the "responding to own action" to unravel seemingly contradictory and simultaneous triggers from here on out?
There are no contradictory or simultaneous triggers here. Generous Widow's ability TRIGGERS Abom's ability, at which point it must be carried out completely; Abom is waiting around for another ability to make it trigger, and GW does just that. Nothing is TRIGGERING Unholy Writ's ability; its ability is at the choice of the owner, who cannot make that choice to use it while another ability is activating.
Kevin Shride
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So the fact that Writ is a choice effect means I cannot use it in this situation, AND I can't use it's effect after it's discarded even though it wasn't negated...if this is the ruling I officially hate it. It's turning Abom into a reusable DoN for non-ongoing artifacts.
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Only when your opponent draws cards outside of draw phase. Or until he can discard Abom. Not that big a deal, really.
Kevin Shride
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I have a question about your argument. You said that Writ was not an ongoing ability, but wouldn't the condition "a hero in battle" make it a dynamic ability which is a form of ongoing ability? In that case, even after discarded you should be able to capture the hero as long as she's in battle and meeting the requirement.
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No, it's not a dynamic ability. "When a Hero is in battle" is just a requirement for when you can use the one-time ability. Writ is neither ongoing nor triggered.
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Hrmm, I still think the ability to, for all intents and purposes, "negate" and discard instant or one-time use cards makes Abom too powerful, as in a dedicated deck you'll be making them draw a lot.
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Writ is not a triggered ability. It is an "at any time" ability (much like a dominant), with a restriction on who it can target (a hero in battle).
Abom is a triggered ability, so it MUST happen first. However, regardless of the fact that UW is discarded, it was not negated, so its effect lasts through the phase. Currently, UW is a capture ability that then discards itself. It does not need to discard itself as part of the cost of the capture.
So, Abom discards UW first, but then you can still capture the hero. Unless there is errata on UW that reads "Discard this to capture..."
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Yay! I was hoping that was the actual case ^_^
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Writ is not a triggered ability. It is an "at any time" ability (much like a dominant), with a restriction on who it can target (a hero in battle).
Abom is a triggered ability, so it MUST happen first. However, regardless of the fact that UW is discarded, it was not negated, so its effect lasts through the phase. Currently, UW is a capture ability that then discards itself. It does not need to discard itself as part of the cost of the capture.
So, Abom discards UW first, but then you can still capture the hero. Unless there is errata on UW that reads "Discard this to capture..."
I agree with Bryon completely on this one.
Mike
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I have to agree with Keven on this one.
This I understand, but we still have the outstanding question of whether you can still use UW if it has already been Abom'ed since Abom only d/c's the card and does not negate the SA of that card.
Since Unholy Writ is not an ongoing ability, but a one-time use ability, its ability should not remain after it has been discarded. If it's not in play, you can't use it.
So, speaking from a judges persepctive, are we going to use the "responding to own action" to unravel seemingly contradictory and simultaneous triggers from here on out?
There are no contradictory or simultaneous triggers here. Generous Widow's ability TRIGGERS Abom's ability, at which point it must be carried out completely; Abom is waiting around for another ability to make it trigger, and GW does just that. Nothing is TRIGGERING Unholy Writ's ability; its ability is at the choice of the owner, who cannot make that choice to use it while another ability is activating.
Kevin Shride
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Hey,
Unholy Writ has an ongoing ability. If it were not ongoing it would have to be instantaneous, which means it would have to perform it's capture upon activation, which would make the card almost entirely useless since artifacts are very rarely activated when Heroes are in battle. Unholy Writ is a triggered ability and all triggered abilities are ongoing (I'll come back to this later).
Normal triggered abilities are triggered by events. Normal triggered abilities are carried out immediately following the event that triggered them. There is a small set of triggered abilities that are triggered by states(i.e. "while blocking with a Herod") rather than by events. In these cases, the trigger itself (the state) is not adequate to identify the exact moment when the triggered ability is carried out (because the state lasts for a certain length of time and the ability could be triggered at any moment while the state lasts). So we allow the player to decide at exactly which moment (while the state is satisfied) these abilities will be carried out. Effectively the player's will becomes the trigger for the ability. We call these abilities "manually triggered abilities." Because it is the player's action (or declaration) that activates the ability we give them the same priority as playing a card (to be exact we give it the same priority as playing a dominant) rather than the same priority as other triggers.
To review breifly priorities of carrying things out: Activating an ability takes priority over carrying out a triggered effect which takes priority over playing a card.
Unholy Writ is the quintessential manually triggered ability (it's actually the first card we ever identified as a manually triggered ability). This means it is a triggered ability (as referenced above) but it has the priority of playing a dominant. Abom is an optionally triggered ability (I get to choose if I trigger it vs I get to choose when I trigger a manually triggered ability) which has the priority of carrying out a triggered effect.
So based on the priority of carrying things out mentioned above, Abom takes priority over Unholy Writ.
And since Unholy Writ is ongoing, since Abom doesn't negate it, and since it doesn't have to be in play to be triggered, it can still be used after it is discarded until the end of the phase in which it is discarded.
Which means I agree with Bryon's rulings.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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so, if unholy writ is an ongoing ability that can still be used once discarded, what is stopping a player from using the ability over and over and over during the battle phase?
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I was wondering when somebody was going to bring that up - I believe that since becuse Writ says "Capture a hero" it can only be used once, and then its ability is fulfilled.
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I was wondering when somebody was going to bring that up - I believe that since becuse Writ says "Capture a hero" it can only be used once, and then its ability is fulfilled.
Capture one Hero. Then discard it. It's not negated. So capture one Hero again. Can't discard it, but that's alright. Capture one Hero again....
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so, if unholy writ is an ongoing ability that can still be used once discarded, what is stopping a player from using the ability over and over and over during the battle phase?
Always trying to break a card aren't we... ::)
The language on Unholy Writ requires you to choose a target, that target being a human Hero in battle. You don't get to choose a new target. You choose the target once. That's it.
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i am choosing the target once. each time i activate it, and on each human i so desire in battle.
furthermore, there is nothing on the card whatsoever that limits its usage to one time, merely 'discard artifact after use'.
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Bingo-bango, UW needs play-as to "Discard to..."
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.... or we could just stick with its ability not being available when it is no longer in play...
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either one would sit fine with me. another poorly worded card, as usual...
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Bingo-bango, UW needs play-as to "Discard to..."
No it doesnt. I like it how it is. Its a manual trigger that you d/c after use. If it is already d/c ed then that part of it is fulfilled so it can target only one human hero. If it is played from the d/c pile then it still has its SA fulfilled. There is no endless loop of capturing human heros in the Battle phase.
No need to errata a card that everyone knows how to play.
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it is not a 'cost: effect' card so there is no 'fulfilling'. as worded, you can spam it during the battle phase.
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No need to errata a card that everyone knows how to play.
Interesting assessment. I guess I am just an idiot then.
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No need to errata a card that everyone knows how to play.
You mean no need to errata a card that most people won't figure out how to use correctly as worded
it is not a 'cost: effect' card so there is no 'fulfilling'. as worded, you can spam it during the battle phase.
+1 with MKC's assessment of the ability. As worded, I would rule it allows to super spamming for that phase. Why do we need to change it however? If you figure out a way to discard Unholy Writ in the battle phase without negating it, I say you should be able to mass capture everyone in battle. :)
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Hey,
Unholy Writ activates during the prep phase when you activate it as your artifact. When you activate it you get to use it's ability, and because it's manually triggered you don't have to use it right away. So you can use it later. But you only get to use it once for each time it activates. You can't capture two characters with unholy Writ in one round any more than you can discard two characters with one Glittering Sword.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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That I can understand, but the idea that I can manually trigger it after it has been discarded makes no sense to me. However, as Crustpope implied, I am not too bright for not understanding this.
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Hey,
Unholy Writ activates during the prep phase when you activate it as your artifact. When you activate it you get to use it's ability, and because it's manually triggered you don't have to use it right away. So you can use it later. But you only get to use it once for each time it activates. You can't capture two characters with unholy Writ in one round any more than you can discard two characters with one Glittering Sword.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
if this is true, then i suppose we cant spam captures on high places, even though its worded pretty much the same way.
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Hey,
if this is true, then i suppose we cant spam captures on high places, even though its worded pretty much the same way.
Unholy Writ allows you to capture "a human hero" - singular.
High Places allows you to play "evil enhancements" - plural.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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do you not play enhancements one at a time with high places? same thing with writ, im using its ability one capture at a time. capture a human hero, capture a human hero...so on so forth. my point being, there is nothing at all printed on the card that limits the usage of unholy writ.
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Here we go again...
If you honestly believe that you should be able to capture any number of heroes with Unholy Writ by the end of battle then please make an argument. If you, like myself, believe that it's pretty obvious it's meant to capture one, be discarded and be done with, please stop.
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Here we go again...
If you honestly believe that you should be able to capture any number of heroes with Unholy Writ by the end of battle then please make an argument.
did you like, miss the last 4 pages or something?
If you, like myself, believe that it's pretty obvious it's meant to capture one, be discarded and be done with, please stop.
what you 'believe' (moreso what is 'obvious') and what is written are two completely different things, with the former being irrelevant towards consistency.
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did you like, miss the last 4 pages or something?
Did you like, miss everything Tim has said?
He has already explained it like 4 different ways.
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Hey,
do you not play enhancements one at a time with high places?
Actually no. Just like Arrogance (the other card with an ability to play more than one enhancement) all enhancements are played at the same time with High Places. You get one chance during your preparation phase to play enhancements and once chance during your discard phase to play enhancements.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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it is not a 'cost: effect' card so there is no 'fulfilling'. as worded, you can spam it during the battle phase.
I am assuming then that this is EXACTLY how you have been playing it for all these years? Just capturing as many heros in battle as you want and then d/c ing it after use? If you can tell me that that is how you have been playing it then you have a reason to keep jawwing about this, but you would be in the extreme minority in how this card has been played. The rest of us have been using it to capture a single hero in battle and then d/c ing it after use.
The only new revelation here is that if the SA on UW is not negated, then "surprise, surprise" it can still be used within the same phase (just like everything else, enhancements, characters etc.) Just because it is d/c'ed before it captures does not open it up to an endless feedback loop of capturing.
That I can understand, but the idea that I can manually trigger it after it has been discarded makes no sense to me. However, as Crustpope implied, I am not too bright for not understanding this.
Ever d/c and enhancement yet still use its SA? Since you are a "bright" fella I will asume that you have and you understand that discarding a card and negating its SA are two different things. That is all I am saying and that does not require tremendous leapsof logic.
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Hey,
I do not have a problem with MKC's series of statements in this thread. Just because we've played something a certain way for three years doesn't mean we've been playing it right. And just because playing something a certain way has results bordering on the absurd (or overpowered) doesn't mean that's not the right way to play it under the status quo. The game needs people in it that are not afraid to challenge the status quo, because if no one challenged the status quo the game couldn't improve. To that extent I appreciate MKC's posts.
That being said, the rules system works for the vast majority of situations and in recent years the number of problems in the rules system has been decreasing. I would appreciate it if players that are challenging the status quo did so recognized this and challenged the status quo in a "not broken until proven broken" sort of way. I have much more respect for a post (and it's poster) that says "[totally amazing combo] seems too good to be true. Is there a rule I've forgotten about that makes it not work like I want it to?" than I do for a post that says "[totally amazing combo] is overpowered and broken, we need errata."
This thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=18477.0) is a perfect example of what I'd like to see.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Ever d/c and enhancement yet still use its SA? Since you are a "bright" fella I will asume that you have and you understand that discarding a card and negating its SA are two different things. That is all I am saying and that does not require tremendous leapsof logic.
I would argue that it does. Discarding cards that have an ongoing effect is one thing, but discarding a card that has not been triggered yet is different. I'm not sure why that seems like such a stretch of intelligence.
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Perhaps I have a solution for this conundrum :) We would all agree about the following situation:
Player 1 plays a GE to win a battle. Player 2 plays an EE to interrupt the battle and discard the hero. The GE then tries to activate, but can't because there is no hero for it to activate on. Thus for the card to work, it needs both an available target, and the proper "foundation" (in this case a character of matching brigade).
So what if we said that for an artifact/curse/covenant to work, it also needs both an available target and the proper "foundation" (in this case the artifact pile or other designated location like a temple). Therefore, in a situation with an artifact that isn't continuously active, if it is no longer on that "foundation", then it can't activate anymore.
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Perhaps I have a solution for this conundrum :) We would all agree about the following situation:
Player 1 plays a GE to win a battle. Player 2 plays an EE to interrupt the battle and discard the hero. The GE then tries to activate, but can't because there is no hero for it to activate on. Thus for the card to work, it needs both an available target, and the proper "foundation" (in this case a character of matching brigade).
So what if we said that for an artifact/curse/covenant to work, it also needs both an available target and the proper "foundation" (in this case the artifact pile or other designated location like a temple). Therefore, in a situation with an artifact that isn't continuously active, if it is no longer on that "foundation", then it can't activate anymore.
There is a big difference between an enhancement having been interrupted and trying to re-activate after the interrupt and an artifact that has activated and its special ability is still in effect because it hasn't been interrupted or negated, just the card was discarded.
I don't think that there is really a conundrum here. Nothing is broken. Just people discussing how an effect with a manual trigger can still be active waiting for the manual trigger when the card that activated it has been discarded. If this needs to be changed, there would be a lot of other cases where an effect is still active but its card has been discarded that would have to change too. I just don't see a problem here.
Mike
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If this needs to be changed, there would be a lot of other cases where an effect is still active but its card has been discarded that would have to change too. I just don't see a problem here.
Again, let us not lump this into "effects that are still active." I am talking specifically about cards that are triggered or that have conditions. I think that if the trigger has not been activated (or the conditions met) before the card is discarded, then the ability should no longer be accessible.
Is this a universal ruling that I have been getting wrong all this time? If my Covenant of Noah is discarded, I can still negate an EE later in battle?
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Is this a universal ruling that I have been getting wrong all this time?
I guess so. This is what the REG has to say:
Cards with ongoing abilities that are not negated continue until the end of the phase in which they are discarded or removed from battle (in the case of special abilities on characters and enhancements, unless specified otherwise), or discarded or removed from play (in the case of sites, artifacts, fortresses, lost souls, placed cards, etc…).
If my Covenant of Noah is discarded, I can still negate an EE later in battle?
Yes, if it was active as an Artifact. This probably hasn't come up very often, if ever, since almost every card that can discard an Artifact also negates it.
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I guess so. This is what the REG has to say:
For goodness sake, can anyone get past that REG quote for just a moment. I am not talking about ongoing abilities. If you look in the REG, there are two main sections - Instant Abilities and Ongoing Abilities. Under that is a list of Instant Ability cards and Ongoing Ability cards. Unholy Writ is listed as an Instant Ability Card. Why would a simpleton like me not ignore the REG quote above since UW is an Instant Ability Card and the quote specifies Ongoing Abilities?
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+1. Writ is an instant ability. Using it many times does not change that fact.
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At last a smart person agrees with me. I feel better already (even if I'm still wrong). ;D
Here is the REG definition of Ongoing Abilities. Please explain to me where Unholy Writ fits in the definition because I am still missing it.
Ongoing Abilities
Ongoing abilities are abilities that have not yet completed. For example, banding is not an ongoing ability because it completes itself before initiative passes. Banding abilities are Instant Abilities. Gabriel is not an ongoing ability because it completes itself before initiative passes. The following are ongoing special abilities:
Lasting Effects (last until end of battle unless specified otherwise)
• Access to Sites
• Copy Ability
• First Strike
• Greater Worth
• Ignore or Repel
• Immune
• Increase or Decrease Ability
• Increase or Decrease Hand Limit
• Negate All
• Prevent
• Protect
Triggered effects (if X happens, then do Y)
• Delayed effects (a time is specified like end of battle , e.g., Great Image, King Tiglath-Pileser III, Bearing Bad News)
• Dynamic effects (depends on the state of the battle, e.g., Dance of Death, Siegeworks)
• Use Other Enhancements (e.g., Coat of Many Colors
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At last a smart person agrees with me. I feel better already (even if I'm still wrong).
I wish. ::)
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Unholy Writ is both a delayed effect and a dynamic effect.
It's delayed in the sense that the ability does not complete immediately when it's activated during your prep phase.
It's dynamic in the sense that it depends on the state of the battle, a human Hero has to be there.
You're correct that it's also an instant capture ability.
A card can fall into more than one category. Maybe that's what's tripping you up?
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I (and I assume we) just don't understand how Writ fits into the ongoing category. It may be delayed/dynamic in the fact it can be used out of prep phase, but that doesn't make it an ongoing ability.
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A card can fall into more than one category. Maybe that's what's tripping you up?
I make rulings based on what the REG says. The REG clearly defines Ongoing Abilities and there is no indication of "delayed" or "dynamic" effects. "Lasting Effects" are listed under the definition of Ongoing Abilities.
Once again, where in that definition would someone like me come to the conclusion that UW can be used after it is discarded?
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Hey,
Under instant abilities it defines them as: "Instant abilities complete before another ability can be inserted." That definition does not fit Unholy Writ so Unholy Writ must not be an instant ability. Since the only options are instant abilities and ongoing abilities (that is the case although it wouldn't surprise me if that's not spelled out anywhere) Unholy Writ must be an ongoing ability.
As far as where Unholy Writ fits in the list of ongoing abilities, the list is broken down into two parts "lasting effects" and "triggered effects." A triggered effect is explained as "if X happens, then do Y." Which is what Unholy Writ does: X = I choose to use it, Y = Capture a human hero in battle. It would then fit into the sub category of "delayed effects" under triggered effects.
Any player moving from playing by the rules to mastering the rules should at some point have trouble with Unholy Writ. Unholy Writ is worded like an instantaneous ability (as worded on the card). If you look at the play as it hopefully becomes easier to understand that it's an ongoing ability. If you look at the play as closer you probably start to wonder how we got to the play as from the original wording. It comes down to the idea of manually triggered abilities (which unfortunately the REG doesn't link you to from Unholy Writ and even if it did the definition of manually triggered abilities isn't all that helpful).
Manually triggered abilities are (generally) instantaneous abilities that do their thing when you choose for them to rather than when they are activated. This allows two things: (1) it allows your preparation phase (and to a lesser extent your discard phase) to be fluid rather than rigid. If there weren't manually triggered abilities fortresses like Kingdoms (putting characters in it) would have to be the first thing you do during your preparation phase. It would be a little bit like going back to the days where we had a separate artifact activation phase, site maintenance phase, and whatever else we had. The new preparation phase where players can do things in whatever order they like is much better in my mind and we need manually triggered abilities to be able to do that. And (2) it allows us to make cards that are not played in battle to have an instantaneous effect on battle (Herod's Dungeon, The Silver Trumpets, Unholy Writ, Covenant with Noah, etc). This adds a new dimension to battle making them all the more fun (well, perhaps the funness of it is debatable, but it definitely makes battles potentially more interesting).
When we first started using the idea of Manually triggered abilities I think we had a pretty good definition of how you identify them. When I get time I'll look and see if I can find it somewhere.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Under instant abilities it defines them as: "Instant abilities complete before another ability can be inserted." That definition does not fit Unholy Writ so Unholy Writ must not be an instant ability. Since the only options are instant abilities and ongoing abilities (that is the case although it wouldn't surprise me if that's not spelled out anywhere) Unholy Writ must be an ongoing ability.
Except that the REG specifically lists it as an Instant Ability Card and not as an Ongoing Ability Card.
As far as where Unholy Writ fits in the list of ongoing abilities, the list is broken down into two parts "lasting effects" and "triggered effects." A triggered effect is explained as "if X happens, then do Y." Which is what Unholy Writ does: X = I choose to use it, Y = Capture a human hero in battle. It would then fit into the sub category of "delayed effects" under triggered effects.
Based on this explanation, every card that says "may" would be an Ongoing Ability. So I could play Reach of Desperation and choose to draw the three cards later in the turn (as long as it is not negated).
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If I activate UW, I don't have to use it. I can't use it if its not face up. I shouldn't be able to use it in the discard pile. If I can something is wrong with that rule.
I can't use Destruction of Nehustion on UW after my oponent used it and it is in the Discard pile.
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Based on this explanation, every card that says "may" would be an Ongoing Ability. So I could play Reach of Desperation and choose to draw the three cards later in the turn (as long as it is not negated).
Except that enhancements activate and take effect immediately unless specified otherwise (such as with Great Image). Reach of Desperation doesn't say "whenever you wish in the battle, draw 3 cards" so it defaults to drawing 3 when you play it.
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I can't use it if its not face up.
Because it was not activated.
I shouldn't be able to use it in the discard pile.
You should if it was only discarded and not degated
I can't use Destruction of Nehustion on UW after my oponent used it and it is in the Discard pile.
That would be true since DoN can only target cards in play.
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If I activate UW, I don't have to use it. I can't use it if its not face up. I shouldn't be able to use it in the discard pile. If I can something is wrong with that rule.
I can't use Destruction of Nehustion on UW after my oponent used it and it is in the Discard pile.
Unholy Writ is an instant ability in the fact that when it is activated in the preparation phase it immediately sets up a manually triggered event "that when the holder chooses they may capture a human hero in battle then discard Unholy Writ." The special ability on the card is completed once the manually triggered effect is setup. Since Unholy Writ's special ability has completed, you are free to play other cards. The manually triggered effect is still active until negated. It no longer depends on the Unholy Writ card being in play, which is why it can be discarded. This is similar to banding a FBN Hero into battle( where their SA ativates, negates the banding and forces themselves out of battle). The special ability on the Hero has completed, but the effect continues till the end of the phase even though the hero is no longer in battle. To use Unholy Writ, you are not activating the card and it's special ability again during the opponent's turn (since you can only activate an artifact during the prep phase), you are simply satisfying the condition of the manual trigger that is still in effect (by choosing to use it when a human hero is in battle).
Based on this explanation, every card that says "may" would be an Ongoing Ability. So I could play Reach of Desperation and choose to draw the three cards later in the turn (as long as it is not negated).
Cards that say "may" are not ongoing abilities because they do not specify another time when they can be used. You have to choose to do them or not do them right then before the special ability completes. Unholy Writ completes as soon as it grants you the right to do something later "when you choose".
Mike
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I appreciate those of you who have patiently tried to explain this to me. Thank you.
I now see what I was missing before, and I have four suggestions for the REG:
1. Remove Unholy Writ from the Instant Ability Card List and add it to the Ongoing Ability Card List (maybe under miscellaneous or see suggestion #3).
2. Include "Manually Triggered Abilities" inside the definition of "Triggered" in the glossary (Maybe as a see "Manually Triggered" with a link). The Glossary list is very long and easy to miss key parts. I had no idea that "Manually Triggered" was on the list. I went immediately to "Triggered," which does not include the "Manually Triggered" definition. I thought y'all were just stating it as a well known idea. ;D
3. Add "Manually Triggered Abilities" to the Ongoing Abilties list.
4. "Play As" and "Errata" for cards in the REG need to be more clearly distinguishable. Either strike out the original wording or put the new SA in bold (for example). I sometimes do not even notice "Play As" when I am looking for a fast ruling.
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Hey,
I almost don't want to say this because I imagine quite a few players are already frustrated with all of the talk about the new REG despite the fact that they haven't seen any results. But I don't want to make it appear like we are ignoring YMT's suggestions so I'll go ahead and say it.
The card list part of the REG is archaic. It's basic design assumes that cards only have one special ability (or at least that one special ability is the "dominant" special ability) which simply is no longer the case, and hasn't been for several years. The problem is if we change the card list now then as soon as the new REG comes out we'll have to do significant changes to it again. So instead I'm waiting until we get the new REG out and then I'll start working on some major changes to the card list. With how long it's taking to get the new REG out that may sound to people like the new card list will never arrive, but the new card list won't take the collaboration that the new REG is taking (it'll just be a reorganization of information rather than changing the information) and the collaboration is what is delaying the new REG, so the card list improvements shouldn't take nearly as long.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly