Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Josh on February 28, 2013, 12:50:01 PM
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I attack with Jacob, band to AUTO, and exchange with Gideon. My opponent blocks with Assyrian Siege Army (or some other 12/12 EC, ability doesn't matter).
What is the condition of the battle (Heroes winning, ECs winning, statemate, mutual destruction)? Do I apply the same rules as Immunity and multiple characters in battle? There is no section in Protect in the REG discussing protected characters in a multi-character battle.
If the rules for Immunity were applied, Jacob and ASA would both be discarded, Gideon would remain in battle, and therefore the Heroes are winning.
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It's essentially the same rules as Immunity, so yes.
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What I don't understand is how Jacob can be discarded in this situation while his side is winning the battle. Siege Army gets initiative and can just die and take Jacob with him and the offense can't play anything? That's like saying a 5/5 character against a 3/3 character is a mutual destruction scenario.
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That's not what I meant. I was referring to the case where the battle ends with no enhancements played.
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What I don't understand is how Jacob can be discarded in this situation while his side is winning the battle. Siege Army gets initiative and can just die and take Jacob with him and the offense can't play anything?
This has always seemed weird to me as well. It doesn't make much sense to compare ASA's offense of 12 with Jacob's defense of 5 and Gideon's defense of 6 to determine if Jacob is dying or not... If Gideon was 6/8, all of a sudden ASA would not be discarding Jacob? Gideon's defense is infinite in both scenarios.
If they are fighting together, wouldn't their defense be infinite + 5? In other words, still infinite?
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Gideon does not have infinite defense, he is protected from all effects of ASA, which includes numbers and abilities. Gideon can combine his toughness with Jacob but he cannot combine his special ability.
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Are you saying that Jacob dies in this scenario? If so who has first initiative in battle? The way I see it is Gideon is protected so his number is either infinite or irreducible depending on how you want to look at it. Either way Gideon cannot be defeated in this scenario and since you must defeat both characters in battle to defeat any character it seems correct to say both Gideon and Jacob live.
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Are you saying that Jacob dies in this scenario? If so who has first initiative in battle? The way I see it is Gideon is protected so his number is either infinite or irreducible depending on how you want to look at it. Either way Gideon cannot be defeated in this scenario and since you must defeat both characters in battle to defeat any character it seems correct to say both Gideon and Jacob live.
You can still be losing the battle if you are on the side with Gideon. If you do not have the strength to overcome the EC, you are losing. You can have initiative in a stalemate scenario, regardless of whether one or both of your heroes will be discarded based on the numbers.
EDIT: Added the bold word, makes a difference.
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By "defeat" I ment in the traditional way. I should have said discarded. Either way this situation isn't a stalemate. The question at hand is whether Jacob is discarded or not.
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By "defeat" I ment in the traditional way. I should have said discarded. Either way this situation isn't a stalemate. The question at hand is whether Jacob is discarded or not.
Jacob would be discarded, as he is not immune. The result of battle is that both heroes are discarded, but Gideon is protected from that effect. So he won't be discarded. That's the way the battle would end if nothing is played.
If cards are played, initiative can pass back and forth as normal for a stalemate.
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Redoubter is correct. Even though Gideon is protected, Jacob is still being discarded by ASA and therefore the battle is a mutual destruction situation and initiative passes back and forth per usual.
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Even though Gideon is protected, Jacob is still being discarded by ASA and therefore the battle is a mutual destruction situation and initiative passes back and forth per usual.
If cards are played, initiative can pass back and forth as normal for a stalemate.
These are not correct. If the battle would move to resolution, then Jacob and ASA would be discarded and Gideon would remain in battle. Therefore, the heroes are winning, and ASA has initiative.
From the REG, concerning multiple characters and immunity in battle (note the bolded sentence):
"Special Conditions
When there are more than two characters in a battle that is affected by an immune ability you must follow a different
process to determine the state of the battle and what characters in battle are being defeated. That process is defined as
follows: Each character in battle that is not immune to any opposing characters in battle is being defeated if the total
strength of all characters on the opponent's side of battle is greater than or equal to the total toughness of all of the
characters on its side of battle. Each character in battle that is immune to at least one opposing character in battle is being
defeated only if the total strength of the characters that it is not immune to on the opponent's side of battle is greater
than or equal to the total toughness of all of the characters on its side of battle. If all heroes in battle and all evil
characters in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the mutual destruction state. If all heroes but not all evil
characters in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the evil character(s) winning state. If all of the evil characters
but not all of the heroes in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the hero(es) winning state. And if not all of the
heroes in battle and not all of the evil characters in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the stalemate state."