Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: slugfencer on March 08, 2012, 06:47:49 PM
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Protection of Jerusalem (FF2)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place in your territory: Protect your good O.T. Fortresses from opponents. When you discard an evil Assyrian from play, you may negate and discard an evil card. • Play As: Place in your territory. While it remains there, protect your good O.T. Fortresses from opponents. When you discard an evil Assyrian from play, you may negate and discard an evil card. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Isaiah 37:35 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)
Death of Unrighteous (Pa)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Shuffle all Lost Souls and sites in holder's Land of Bondage into owner's draw pile. Discard all Evil Characters in battle. • Play As: Shuffle [return] all Lost Souls, sites, and evil cards in sites in your Land of Bondage into your deck. Discard all Evil Characters in battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 7:23 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
I have Prot o Jeru in play. I play DOU on my assyrian. Do I get to D/C and evil card from opponents territory?
Also, how are people making the title of cards where you get to hover over it and it shows the card? They are also doing it in deck design with decks and it is really cool.
Thanks!
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I would say it does since you are discarding an assyrian
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That works.
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Also, how are people making the title of cards where you get to hover over it and it shows the card? They are also doing it in deck design with decks and it is really cool.
Thanks!
#Protection of Jerusalem (there should be a drop down menu)
Protection of Jerusalem (FF2)
Death of Unrighteous (Pa)
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I hit the # sign above the face icons--I must be doing this wrong.
-help! :-[
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Just type the pound sign (#) and then start typing the name of the card. Death of Unrighteous
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FWiW, be careful about playing it on an active Assyrian Survivor as PoJ won't fire due to the capture.
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#Death of Unrighteous
Ugh
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FWiW, be careful about playing it on an active Assyrian Survivor as PoJ won't fire due to the capture.
Wait, what? I thought he had to be discarded before he could be defeated, triggering PoJ before it triggers Survivor. If that's true, my Lamenting deck was quite possibly the worst deck I've ever built. And that's saying something.
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Insteading undoes the initial ability before it happens, but Soul Survivor is not an instead ability. He is Discarded, then Captured.
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Insteading undoes the initial ability before it happens, but Soul Survivor is not an instead ability. He is Discarded, then Captured.
This is how I've always understood this ability (and a couple of others, like PG Panic Demon). DoU would still discard him, he would just then get captured. It is not an instead as I understand it in the line of Wandering Spirit, Gates of Hell, Chamber of Angels, Obi-Wan's Caves, etc.
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Insteading undoes the initial ability before it happens, but Soul Survivor is not an instead ability. He is Discarded, then Captured.
Instead is not an ability so that language won't affect this ruling. The concept is the same.
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Instead is not an ability so that language won't affect this ruling. The concept is the same.
From the REG:
Instead
Cards that use the word "instead" replace an effect with a different effect. When a card has a new effect applied to it "instead", it is not considered to have the original effect applied to it in any way. As such, "instead" implies a "would be" condition for the original effect (e.g. "if your character [would be] discarded...")
Assyrian Survivor (FF2)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Protected from discard abilities on opponent’s cards. If defeated, capture to opponent's Land of Bondage. Cannot be interrupted.
Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.
You are correct, sir. I was thinking that the card was worded differently (something like the PG Panic Demon). However, in this case it should not trigger PoJ for the reasons outlined.
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You are correct, sir. I was thinking that the card was worded differently (something like the PG Panic Demon). However, in this case it should not trigger PoJ for the reasons outlined.
Just the opposite. You just proved that PoJ would activate in the case of survivor. In order to be captured, Survivor has to be defeated. In order to be defeated, Survivor has to be discarded. Thus, you still discarded an Assyrian, he just ended up somewhere other than the discard pile.
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right and cards that end up somewhere other then a set location don't pay the cost hence lazarus + masters table = broken so again no unless survivor remains in discard it was captured ty
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right and cards that end up somewhere other then a set location don't pay the cost hence lazarus + masters table = broken so again no unless survivor remains in discard it was captured ty
But Survivor is not insteaded. The Master's Table is an instead ability, so that combination does not work here.
The Simple fact is, that Survivor can not be captured by his own ability unless he is first defeated. And as the REG so eloquently states, if he is discarded he is defeated. So you can not argue that he was simply captured and not discarded because he can't be captured by his own ability until he's been defeated first. if we used your logic we would say:
Step 1: He is discarded
Step 2: He is then Captured
Clarification: He has been captured, thus he was not discarded.
Resolution: He was not discarded, thus he was not defeated, thus he is not captured.
Paradox: He was not captured, so he gets discarded...
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Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.
However, with DOU's discard, doesn't the Assyrian Survivor achieve its goal by stopping the hero from making a successful rescue?
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DING DING DING GIVE HIM A COOKIE ASSYRIAN SURVIVOR NEVER GETS DEFEATED CAUSE THE HERO DOESN'T GET A SOUL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Quote
Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.
The RA fails, but Survivor is still defeated as he was still discarded. The discard happens. there is no ignoring that. If you want DoU to work, Survivor is discarded. If you want Survivor to be captured Survivor is still discarded. And seeing as the person who played DoU is the person who had PoJ in play he still discarded an Assyrian. You can't argue that everything happened but the discard because for any of it to happen, Survivor has to be defeated, which in this case means discarded.
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Praeceps is correct. Assyrian Survivor's condition of "defeated" has nothing to do with whether or not the hero got a Lost Soul, it merely has to do with the state of Assyrian Survivor. When he's discarded his self-capture ability kicks in.
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Praeceps is correct. Assyrian Survivor's condition of "defeated" has nothing to do with whether or not the hero got a Lost Soul, it merely has to do with the state of Assyrian Survivor. When he's discarded his self-capture ability kicks in.
It seems that defeated needs to be redefined in the REG
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Praeceps is correct. Assyrian Survivor's condition of "defeated" has nothing to do with whether or not the hero got a Lost Soul, it merely has to do with the state of Assyrian Survivor. When he's discarded his self-capture ability kicks in.
It seems that defeated needs to be redefined in the REG
I don't think so. The REG definition clearly has the word "discarded" under the definition, which I think satisfies the requirement. If anything, I'd just remove the word "otherwise" from it. Let me put it this way: A hero makes a battle challenge against you and you block with Assyrian Survivor; you have initiative and pass it, letting AS die. Clearly he was defeated, right?
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
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Praeceps is correct. Assyrian Survivor's condition of "defeated" has nothing to do with whether or not the hero got a Lost Soul, it merely has to do with the state of Assyrian Survivor. When he's discarded his self-capture ability kicks in.
It seems that defeated needs to be redefined in the REG
I don't think so. The REG definition clearly has the word "discarded" under the definition, which I think satisfies the requirement. If anything, I'd just remove the word "otherwise" from it. Let me put it this way: A hero makes a battle challenge against you and you block with Assyrian Survivor; you have initiative and pass it, letting AS die. Clearly he was defeated, right?
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
Except that Omri's ability is being negated. DoU is not being negated, so AS is discarded.
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)
What are you getting at, though?
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Quote from: theselfevident on Today at 01:43:56 AM
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)
What are you getting at, though?
I know what he's getting at. And that doesn't work, stopping the hero from rescuing the LS doesn't count as a defeat. Otherwise Potipher's Wife would capture off Failed Objective.
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)
What are you getting at, though?
Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.
The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?
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The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?
That's a point that's been argued before and dismissed. When the evil character is discarded, it's considered "defeated," in T1 especially where the evil character isn't actually causing the RA to fail (and in fact, a HT can make the RA a success).
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)
What are you getting at, though?
Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.
The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?
No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)
What are you getting at, though?
Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.
The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?
No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.
Then defeated should be redefined for clarification of this ruling
as it stands it says:
Evil Character is Defeated
An evil character is defeated if at the end of the battle resolution the Hero wins the battle.
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Of course, getting the REG edited is roughly the equivalent of getting Nick Cage to star in a good movie these days.
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Of course, getting the REG edited is roughly the equivalent of getting Nick Cage to star in a good movie these days.
And that is exactly my point =D
Nick Cage... *shakes head in shame*... *somewhere an angel lost its wings 'cuz Chuck Norris just round house kicked them off in a fit of humorous rage 'cuz that was so funny*
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)
What are you getting at, though?
Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.
The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?
No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.
Then defeated should be redefined for clarification of this ruling
as it stands it says:
Evil Character is Defeated
An evil character is defeated if at the end of the battle resolution the Hero wins the battle.
You get mugged and someone steals your cell phone. You chase after the mugger. He slips, falls in front of an on duty Police officer and your cell phone goes sliding down a storm drain. Did you (The Hero) win this battle? Was the Mugger (The EC) defeated?
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing
Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.
A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.
What is an evil character's goal in battle?
Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)
What are you getting at, though?
Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.
The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?
No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.
Then defeated should be redefined for clarification of this ruling
as it stands it says:
Evil Character is Defeated
An evil character is defeated if at the end of the battle resolution the Hero wins the battle.
You get mugged and someone steals your cell phone. You chase after the mugger. He slips, falls in front of an on duty Police officer and your cell phone goes sliding down a storm drain. Did you (The Hero) win this battle? Was the Mugger (The EC) defeated?
I'm not arguing the ruling, I'm just saying the definition should be updated to include this example. And its pretty obvious the mugger won, he wanted to get caught, 'cuz there's tracking devices in cell phones. He should have stolen the wallet...
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He did, actually, when you weren't looking. The cop wasn't even a real cop, he was just a guy in a uniform. At any rate, thanks for the credit cards.
-runs away cackling-
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He did, actually, when you weren't looking. The cop wasn't even a real cop, he was just a guy in a uniform. At any rate, thanks for the credit cards.
-runs away cackling-
Jokes on you =) I'm maxed out LOL
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Hey,
In the example Assyrian Survivor is discarded. Goes to the discard pile. And is then captured by his own ability, from the discard pile. Which is normally out of range for a capture ability but we made an exception a long time ago for cards like this. A character does not have to remain in the discard pile to be discarded, he just has to make it all the way there before being relocated.
The definition of defeat in the REG does not need changing. In the example when Death of Unrighteous removes the lost souls from play it converts the Rescue attempt to a battle challenge. Assyrian Survivor then loses the battle challenge when he is discarded. Losing a battle challenge qualifies as being defeated. (So Assyrian Survivor is actually simultaneously winning a rescue attempt and losing a battle challenge.)Additionally "discarded" is specifically mentioned in case one Evil Character is discarded but other Evil Characters remain in battle and end up winning it. Even though the evil side won the battle, the Evil Character that was discarded was still defeated.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
In the example Assyrian Survivor is discarded. Goes to the discard pile. And is then captured by his own ability, from the discard pile. Which is normally out of range for a capture ability but we made an exception a long time ago for cards like this. A character does not have to remain in the discard pile to be discarded, he just has to make it all the way there before being relocated.
The definition of defeat in the REG does not need changing. In the example when Death of Unrighteous removes the lost souls from play it converts the Rescue attempt to a battle challenge. Assyrian Survivor then loses the battle challenge when he is discarded. Losing a battle challenge qualifies as being defeated. (So Assyrian Survivor is actually simultaneously winning a rescue attempt and losing a battle challenge.)Additionally "discarded" is specifically mentioned in case one Evil Character is discarded but other Evil Characters remain in battle and end up winning it. Even though the evil side won the battle, the Evil Character that was discarded was still defeated.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Now that makes sense
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Hey,
In the example Assyrian Survivor is discarded. Goes to the discard pile. And is then captured by his own ability, from the discard pile. Which is normally out of range for a capture ability but we made an exception a long time ago for cards like this. A character does not have to remain in the discard pile to be discarded, he just has to make it all the way there before being relocated.
I guess you must have missed the ruling saturday because the other two elders said poj doesn't trigger. Where were you when I needed you? Oh yeah you were trying to make sense of Craigs deck ;)
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Hey,
I guess you must have missed the ruling saturday because the two elders said poj doesn't trigger. Where were you when I need you? Oh yeah you were trying to make sense of Craigs deck ;)
Which despite having an Assyrian defense had only 1 Assyrian Survivor and 0 Death of Unrighteous. * facepalm *
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Well which elders are right? The one's that say POJ triggers or the one's that don't? I need to know how to rule this.
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Hey,
I guess you must have missed the ruling saturday because the two elders said poj doesn't trigger. Where were you when I need you? Oh yeah you were trying to make sense of Craigs deck ;)
Which despite having an Assyrian defense had only 1 Assyrian Survivor and 0 Death of Unrighteous. * facepalm *
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
I had Thorns and Pigs with a Pharisee defense. At least yours was still playable.