Author Topic: Proposed Deck building T1 rule change: multiple Generics (Read 12845 times)

Wings of Music · « **Reply #75 on:** May 14, 2012, 05:25:06 PM »

I think it was intended to balance the meta by giving a bunch of different brigades ways to draw (like how red got Ishmaiah and Gold got Sam) unfortunately all those new cards just happened to combine perfectly to make what we know as 'sam decks.'

Note this is purely conjecture

Red Wing · « **Reply #76 on:** May 14, 2012, 05:29:30 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on May 14, 2012, 05:25:06 PM

I think it was intended to balance the meta by giving a bunch of different brigades ways to draw (like how red got Ishmaiah and Gold got Sam) unfortunately all those new cards just happened to combine perfectly to make what we know as 'sam decks.'

Note this is purely conjecture

.

The irony is that mono Gold and Red is still pretty low tier.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #77 on:** May 14, 2012, 05:39:29 PM »

If it weren't for either Angel under the Oak or Samuel, this set would have been more or less ok. But answer me this, Nobody, if speed counters are one set behind, how do you explain Gardenciples still being dominant, arguably even better than Sam decks?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #78 on:** May 14, 2012, 08:42:28 PM »

I have a proposition for all future sets:

If an ability draws cards, it MUST have a cost. There are too many free draws in the game.

OR

If an ability draws cards, it must do NOTHING else. There are too many cards that draw and have other uses, such as heroes or interrupt, draw, and play next enhancement.

OR

Just stop printing cards that draw. We have enough.

megamanlan · « **Reply #79 on:** May 14, 2012, 09:39:48 PM »

As a former Yugioh Player, speed is still used, if ur going to play Exodia but most 'speed' decks aren't just drawing, it's more on getting your base characters out and fast, (usually by searching) but they can win well too.

Redoubter · « **Reply #80 on:** May 14, 2012, 09:59:03 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 14, 2012, 09:39:48 PM

As a former Yugioh Player, speed is still used, if ur going to play Exodia but most 'speed' decks aren't just drawing, it's more on getting your base characters out and fast, (usually by searching) but they can win well too.

Yugioh =/= Redemption

And just because it is useful, doesn't mean they are needed. These abilities are taking over the game and meta completely. Also, there are plenty of searches that can also be 'speedy' (see: Isaiah-maiah).

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #81 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:05:12 PM »

I don't mind searches as long as they're kept in check. They only look for specific cards, and NOTHING else.

Draws let you pull your entire deck faster.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #82 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:09:11 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 14, 2012, 10:05:12 PM

Draws let you pull your entire deck faster.

Deck-out Rule! Deck-out Rule!

megamanlan · « **Reply #83 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:10:32 PM »

The point is that the game-rule stopped speed to an extent. I'm not saying Yugioh and Redemption are the same or even similar, it's just that it's an example of where it shut down speed just a little.

Redoubter · « **Reply #84 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:14:16 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 14, 2012, 10:09:11 PM

Deck-out Rule! Deck-out Rule!

And a

for you...

Quote from: megamanlan on May 14, 2012, 10:10:32 PM

The point is that the game-rule stopped speed to an extent. I'm not saying Yugioh and Redemption are the same or even similar, it's just that it's an example of where it shut down speed just a little.

Which game rule are you referring to? You had mentioned searches before, and I was responding to that. Game rule for Yugi-Oh is that if you deck, you lose, if that's what you're referring to, yes. That won't be implemented in Redemption, for obvious reasons.

megamanlan · « **Reply #85 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:21:27 PM »

I was using Yugioh as an example of what a Deck-out rule can do to damaging extreme speed, not suggesting that rule for Redemption, but one that does have a punishment. Another thing that can be done is making Draw cards not draw so much or have greater costs for drawing, (like Hand Destruction in Yugioh, "All players may Discard 2 from Hand to Draw 2.")

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #86 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:25:53 PM »

My problem with deck-out rules is that it rewards decks that thin out the opponent's deck/wait them out.

We just need to hit drawing, nothing else.

Redoubter · « **Reply #87 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:26:04 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 14, 2012, 10:21:27 PM

Another thing that can be done is making Draw cards not draw so much or have greater costs for drawing, (like Hand Destruction in Yugioh, "All players may Discard 2 from Hand to Draw 2.")

The problem is we actually have that card (and it's CBN, no less):

The Generous Widow (RA)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: All players must discard two cards from hand and draw two cards. Cannot be negated.

And cards like this would just use Gifts of the Magi to let the player using it draw more than the opponent. That's what happens now.

Chris · « **Reply #88 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:36:17 PM »

Mark, fair enough; I'll concede that perhaps defense heavy is as viable as speed with longer time limits, but that will never be possible because bigger tournaments, especially Nats, takes enough time as it is. Even adding 15 minutes to a 10 round Nats potentially adds two and a half hours to the total play time, and when it's stretching for 6-8 hours as it is, that's simply too much. I was originally a supporter of extending the time limit to an hour, and even now, from a gameplay prospective, I support it, but logistically, I don't like it. A deck out rule remains the best option in my opinion, since it does something without fundamentally altering the game too much, which I worry would happen with any rules that specifically target drawing (limiting it per turn, the GotM rule you're so fond of, or some other negative consequence when you draw). Of all the proposed suggestions (aside from two generics per deck), a deck out rule is my favorite suggestion.

Tim, as far as I'm aware, Darius' Decree wasn't used at all in the season following TxP, and it was only used in the season following Disciples specifically because of Fishing Boat. At least a handful of players, including myself, experimented with it a lot this season, and from everyone I've heard of, the idea was eventually dropped because set-aside drawing wasn't as prevalent this season. Aside from the possibility of Nazareth, what is better anti-speed than RBD?

megamanlan · « **Reply #89 on:** May 14, 2012, 10:49:47 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 14, 2012, 10:25:53 PM

My problem with deck-out rules is that it rewards decks that thin out the opponent's deck/wait them out.

We just need to hit drawing, nothing else.

Nearly all of which are negate-able and I know that Yugioh actually has a theme like that, but it doesn't do well, and if normal Egyptians make a come-back there are already plenty of ways to shut down Deck D/C'ding.

Actually Yugioh has a card worse then that... Appropriate
"Each time Opponent draws card by a card effect, Draw 2." it's a continueous trap and u can have at a time. So I play Hand Destruction, and my Opponent draws 2, But I draw 2+2+2+2 for a grand total of 8 cards plus I can do that 2 more times and during my opponents turn.

Josh · « **Reply #90 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:11:08 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 14, 2012, 05:39:29 PM

If it weren't for either Angel under the Oak or Samuel, this set would have been more or less ok.

Really, the drawing of a Sam deck should have been no surprise. Sam draws based on non-Gold heroes. Also, why does Ishmaiah draw based on OT heroes? He should have been printed to draw on Red WC heroes or something like that.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 14, 2012, 05:39:29 PM

But answer me this, Nobody, if speed counters are one set behind, how do you explain Gardenciples still being dominant, arguably even better than Sam decks?

Because TGT is the most broken non-dominant ever? Maybe the most broken card ever? So many failed counters printed...

TGT/Disciples both have:
One amazing battlewinner (AoCP/HiR) with other battlewinners
One massive CBN band (MMoJ/Philip)
ITB + drawing + play next (Words/Reach)
Drawing via set-aside (First Fruits/Pentecost)
Access to TGT
Ways to stop chump blockers (James/John/Joanna)

Seriously, I'm trying to imagine what cards would have to be printed for TGT not to be top-tier. It's NEVER going to happen by making weaker offensive themes stronger. It will have to happen by making all defenses better.

Korunks · « **Reply #91 on:** May 15, 2012, 10:55:58 AM »

I think jmhartz hit it on the head, aside from chump blocking and stand alone the power difference between offense and defense is too great. I know historically we have always wanted offense stronger to avoid timeouts, but I think the gap has grown too much. I also know theologically we have wanted defense weaker because God triumphs over evil. But speaking strictly from a game perspective I think defense's just need to be beefed up.

browarod · « **Reply #92 on:** May 15, 2012, 11:42:36 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2012, 10:55:58 AM

But speaking strictly from a game perspective I think defenses just need to be beefed up.

I've been saying that for 3 years.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #93 on:** May 15, 2012, 11:53:52 AM »

Quote from: browarod on May 15, 2012, 11:42:36 AM

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2012, 10:55:58 AM
But speaking strictly from a game perspective I think defenses just need to be beefed up.
I've been saying that for 3 years.

That would be nice.

On the original topic, instead of the 2 per 50 rule, how about more reprints of generic cards (like the sadds/pharisees, etc)?

megamanlan · « **Reply #94 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:29:41 PM »

For TGT, HHI, RbD, Cov. W/ Abe (I think everyone forgets this, No EC's can be set-aside) and then Gab the other nasty Enhancements like AoCP/MLaMG, and big defenses stop TGT too. Part of the reason why there aren't an insane amount of counters for them already, and an opponent can't stop all of them.

SirNobody · « **Reply #95 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:32:54 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Chris on May 14, 2012, 10:36:17 PM

Tim, as far as I'm aware, Darius' Decree wasn't used at all in the season following TxP, and it was only used in the season following Disciples specifically because of Fishing Boat. At least a handful of players, including myself, experimented with it a lot this season, and from everyone I've heard of, the idea was eventually dropped because set-aside drawing wasn't as prevalent this season. Aside from the possibility of Nazareth, what is better anti-speed than RBD?

Darius' Decree was used in my deck in the season following TxP. Darius' Decree's effect was more based on it's existence than it's use. The risk of someone using Darius' Decree against you made players pull back on how freely they used draw set-asides. There was a significant drop in the use of draw set-asides the year after Darius' Decree came out.

As far as better than RBD, the anti-draw lost soul. While the anti-draw lost soul doesn't stop Heroes that draw or CBN drawing, it does stop a lot of drawing, and the cost of using it is very small (the only thing you lose is whatever effect your next best lost soul would have had). RBD on the other hand does stop more drawing, but the cost of taking up my artifact pile is a price I'm not willing to pay.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #96 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:37:51 PM »

The anti-draw LS is all but useless. Most-if-not-all drawing comes from characters, the FbtN LS is in basically every deck, and really the only things it stops are Sabbath Breaker, Reach and the occasional Proud Pharisee.

SirNobody · « **Reply #97 on:** May 15, 2012, 03:47:49 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 14, 2012, 05:39:29 PM

But answer me this, Nobody, if speed counters are one set behind, how do you explain Gardenciples still being dominant, arguably even better than Sam decks?

The Garden Tomb was designed to be very effective against small defenses. As long as most players still use small defenses The Garden Tomb will continue to be dominant. Disciples was the dominant speed strategy of last year. In order for it to fall out of favor with players, something else has to come along that is better. A lot of players believe Sam decks are better. With the very small number of cards we print each year (especially last year) it is hard to create very many better options, so the very best decks tend to remain top 5 decks for several years.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #98 on:** May 15, 2012, 04:00:48 PM »

So how does that jive with speed counters being a year behind? Are they actually five years behind?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #99 on:** May 15, 2012, 04:05:53 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on May 15, 2012, 03:47:49 PM

In order for it to fall out of favor with players, something else has to come along that is better.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is power creep.

Rather than replace something overpowered with something that's even MORE overpowered, find a way to take that overpowered strategy down a notch.

News:

Author Topic: Proposed Deck building T1 rule change: multiple Generics (Read 12845 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Chris

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo