Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on May 16, 2009, 12:50:40 PM
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When a Hero uses Primary Objective, are they required to have access to the chosen Lost Soul?
For example, if Primary Objective is played on an OT Male, can Primary Objective rescue the Female or NT LS?
New example below.
Primary Objective
Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3/0 • Class: None • Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge.
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I'd say no, access is not required (it can even be in a site), because the Holder, not the Hero, is rescuing the soul. Just a guess though.
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So, disregard that example using the NT/Female LS, they're protected from rescue and not legal targets. However, the question still remains, if the LS is in a Site that you don't have access to, can PO still rescue it?
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So, disregard that example using the NT/Female LS, they're protected from rescue and not legal targets. However, the question still remains, if the LS is in a Site that you don't have access to, can PO still rescue it?
No
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If Primary Objective was intended to give you access to all sites, the special ability would say that this hero has access to all sites; but it doesn't. So I would say that you must have access to a site, if the lost soul you want to rescue is in a site.
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I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem. :) :2cents:
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I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem. :) :2cents:
Son of God and New Jerusalem are multi colored dominants. Where as Primary Objective is a good enhancement, subject to different rules and a single brigade.
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so, what if you played Long Day? You would lose the battle, begin another, and get another LS. You could win in 2 turns if they was right.....
I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem. :) :2cents:
Son of God and New Jerusalem are multi colored dominants. Where as Primary Objective is a good enhancement, subject to different rules and a single brigade.
He meant that both can rescue a LS without access.
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I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem. :) :2cents:
Yeah, I don't think you need access, as I agree that the rescue seems unrelated to the battle.
Son of God and New Jerusalem are multi colored dominants. Where as Primary Objective is a good enhancement, subject to different rules and a single brigade.
They're not multibrigade. Dominants do not have brigades (or else nobody would play GotL ::)). Primary Objective is giving the holder the ability to rescue, which circumvents the need for access, IMO.
so, what if you played Long Day? You would lose the battle, begin another, and get another LS. You could win in 2 turns if they was right.....
Shhhh....
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Long day only works with a rescue attempt. If you play primary objective, it's a battle challenge Cameron. :)
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When a Rescue Attempt becomes a Battle Challenge, it is a failed rescue. This combo has been around for a while.
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Wow... really? That's pretty awesome... I'm definitely going to base a deck on this. ;D
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Its not worth it believe me.... check out this thread....
NVM. I forgot... the purge... my ultimate one turn deck gasp.... needless to say it was nasty though recent rule changes have made it unlikely to play.
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Its not worth it believe me.... check out this thread....
NVM. I forgot... the purge... my ultimate one turn deck gasp.... needless to say it was nasty though recent rule changes have made it unlikely to play.
The problem isnt playing the long day to get the card back, the problem is gettin 7 more cards in your hand to discard everytime to make the combo work. you have to have a lot of drawing cards in the combo and enough cards left in your deck ion order to get the combo to work
It works better in type 2 games
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Can we please get away from the Long Day discussion? I would really like a ruling on this.
This was a question that came up during a "fun" game at the Iowa State Tournament between Gabe and me. After consulting with Tim Maly (who was there, and made this excellent point), we agreed that Primary Objective could NOT rescue the NT Soul or the Woman-only Soul because those cards are restricted in what kind of card can target them (if New Jerusalem cannot target either of them, neither can PO).
That being said, I firmly believe that PO can target a soul in a site that the character PO is played on has no access to. PO's wording is unlike any other enhancement's ability in that it specifically says that the holder rescues any selected lost soul. It further says that the battle continues as a battle challenge, indicating that the battle has nothing to do with rescuing the lost soul. Gabe disagrees and says the Hero must have access for PO to target the soul.
Am I right or is Gabe?
Kevin Shride
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Primary Objective:
Brigade: Silver Ability: 3/0 Class: None Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or HOLDER rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge.
You select a lost soul, and then you rescue it, not your hero. The hero has nothing to do with this ability aside from the fact that he played the enhancement, so I don't think it's necessary for the hero to have access at all.
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By that logic, you still could not rescue the female-only LS since you (the holder) are not a female hero or the Son of God; could not rescue the NT-only LS since you are the holder and not the hero; ditto for the */4-only LS.
FWIW, I think that access is irrelevant. This card clearly supercedes normal rescue rules, therefore LS access should be one of them.
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I'm torn. From my experience with someone trying to break TEAMS at last year's Nats by turning Doubt into a CTB card when it is not one (props), I would think that it is equally wrong for someone to turn PO into a site access card when it is not one.
However, based on the wording of the card, it does seem to be pretty specific that rescuing the soul has nothing to do with the hero. In fact the hero isn't even in a rescue attempt anymore, but just a battle challenge. Therefore, I think that I would tentatively rule that a site-protected LS COULD be rescued in this case.
Not being confident, I will of course defer to whatever the official decision is from Schaef/Bryon.
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I think that the cost is high enough to justify the reward.
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I agree with those who say Primary Objective can rescue the Lost Soul from a site when no access exists.
Kirk
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By that logic, you still could not rescue the female-only LS since you (the holder) are not a female hero or the Son of God; could not rescue the NT-only LS since you are the holder and not the hero; ditto for the */4-only LS.
And the first-rounder (on the first round). I never claimed you could rescue things like that.
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... or the anti-banding LS if there are different-booked Heroes banded. Or the Speed Bump if you have >10 in hand. Or the anti-angel LS.
The question of Site access might not matter, it's starting to look like all your LS are protected anyway! ;D
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And the first-rounder (on the first round). I never claimed you could rescue things like that.
I was suggesting that your evidence would not stand up in a court of Redemption law. ;)
In your example, Arianna could not rescue the Female-only LS with Primary Objective.
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In your example, Arianna could not rescue the Female-only LS with Primary Objective.
That is correct. What are you trying to say?
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She can.
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Who said that?
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Either the hero rescues the soul (normal rescue attampts), or the holder does (Son of God, NJ, Primary Objective).
We COULD erratta Primary Objective to say "Hero rescues" instead, but I don't think it is neccessary.
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Who said that?
Ariana is a female angel.
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Who said that?
Ariana is a female angel.
So? The hero isn't the one doing the rescuing.
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Either the hero rescues the soul (normal rescue attampts), or the holder does (Son of God, NJ, Primary Objective).
We COULD erratta Primary Objective to say "Hero rescues" instead, but I don't think it is neccessary.
Unnecessary because "holder rescues" is fine, or unnecessary because only heroes can rescue?
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So...... have people really been ruling that Arianna cannot use Primary Objective to rescue the female-only LS when access is available because PO says "holder?"
That would be news to me.
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Hey,
So...... have people really been ruling that Arianna cannot use Primary Objective to rescue the female-only LS when access is available because PO says "holder?"
That would be news to me.
Have people been playing Primary Objective on Arianna? That would be news to me :D
I agree with Kevin Shride's position as expressed on the first page of this thread.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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All kidding aside, is that really how people have been ruling PO? I need to know as a host.
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Arianna not being allowed to rescue the Female LS with PO would fit better with allowing her to rescue one in a site, especially if it's the holder doing the rescuing.
If it's the holder doing the rescuing, then you should be able to rescue any LS without a protect SA, regardless of site access, but you can't rescue any with a protect SA. If it's the hero doing the rescuing, the hero has to have access - both site and through the protect SA, if needed.
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PO says "holder rescues." That means Holder/PO is rescuing, just like holder/SoG or Holder/NJ rescue.
To sk: Unneccessary because I think it works fine to have a soul rescued by holder. The only potential problem I see with it is a combo with Long Day. But that does not seem to be too big of a problem right now.
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Arianna not being allowed to rescue the Female LS with PO would fit better with allowing her to rescue one in a site, especially if it's the holder doing the rescuing.
I agree with what you are saying, but I was under the impression that allowing rescue of a site-locked LS was a new ruling. Have people been playing that Arianna could not use PO on the female-only before now? Have people been allowing site-locked LSs to be rescued by PO? I am more curious as to how this has been ruled in the past.
I normally would have allowed the Arianna rescue, but not the site-locked rescue. I am willing to accept the "new" ruling (for me) to allow the site-locked rescue, at the expense of the Arianna rescue. I was just wondering how many of us ruled one way or the other already.
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Hey,
My guess is that most of us have never had to rule one way or the other on Primary Objective because we haven't seen anyone try to use it. I certainly have never had the need or opportunity in the past to make a ruling about Primary Objective rescuing a lost soul in a site or a lost soul with a protect ability. I have always assumed Primary Objective could rescue a lost soul that was in a site, but the issue of a lost soul with a protect ability had never occurred to me in the past.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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That being said, I firmly believe that PO can target a soul in a site that the character PO is played on has no access to. PO's wording is unlike any other enhancement's ability in that it specifically says that the holder rescues any selected lost soul. It further says that the battle continues as a battle challenge, indicating that the battle has nothing to do with rescuing the lost soul. Gabe disagrees and says the Hero must have access for PO to target the soul.
Am I right or is Gabe?
Kevin Shride
I agree with Kevin.
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Well, That about sums it up then.
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...PO's wording is unlike any other enhancement's ability in that it specifically says that the holder rescues any selected lost soul...
I agree with Kevin.
Rob, thank you for posting on this. Just to be clear, are you saying that PO can rescue protected Lost Souls (like Female, NT etc) as well as souls in sites to which the Hero would not have access?
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I believe that you can select a Lost Soul that is not available to the Hero (e.g. in a Site), but I do not think you can select a soul that has a restriction (e.g. female only says female Hero or Son of God. A free grab with PO is neither of those things).
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I believe that you can select a Lost Soul that is not available to the Hero (e.g. in a Site), but I do not think you can select a soul that has a restriction (e.g. female only says female Hero or Son of God. A free grab with PO is neither of those things).
Right.