Please move and discuss this thread on playtesters board

[Gabe]

So...ok, when are you guys going to get your story straight on "harm?" Last I heard it was being affected by a card not of the same alignment.

Are you saying that Job and the Deck Discard LS are of the same alignment?  One is good.  One is neutral.

[The Schaef]

There could be an easy fix, but it's not been instituted yet, so don't act like there's no problem.

I'm not acting like there's no problem.  I was questioning the nature and depth of the problem, which I still consider to be of a scope limited enough that your confrontational stance towards the people looking to resolve this issue is not warranted.

I happen to think this particular issue also has a relatively simple solution, but I don't yet have the specific information I need to verify that, so I have not definitively stated anything I could not back up factually.  I would think that is the appropriate way to minimize confusion both before and after that resolution is presented.

[Prof Underwood]

So...ok, when are you guys going to get your story straight on "harm?" Last I heard it was being affected by a card not of the same alignment.

My understanding is that "harm" is targeting a card of a different alignment.  Therefore, targeting a card to move it to a different location in the deck would be considered harm if the card that was targeting was of a different alignment.

[Minister Polarius]

Mine as well, but another elder just said otherwise. And not "I think" or "I believe," but "Not harm." This exhibits an obvious confusion about what harm even means from the elders.

[The Schaef]

Well, since you have an official rule on the matter and numerous elders that are confirming that ruling, I would say there is no "obvious confusion" or need to "get the story straight" apart from one individual.

[Minister Polarius]

I'm not saying the story isn't straight, I'm saying there should be more cohesion among the elders, and that elders shouldn't state their opinion as fact unless they know they're making the right ruling.

[The Schaef]

And I'm just saying that a sports car might be in order.

[Minister Polarius]

Well played. I just wish Elders wouldn't post their opinion as if that's the actual ruling when A). a ruling hasn't been officially decided on yet or B). it's wrong.

[Prof Underwood]

We try Pol, but we are human, too.  As for Guardian's last comment that you find so confusing, I went back and read it, and I think it is simply a mistype.  He states that the deck discard LS would be "harming" and would send Job to D&A, which is the same thing that all the rest of us elders are saying.  I think his first couple words "not harm" are simply a mistype.  No reason to break out the pitchforks

[Minister Polarius]

No pitchforks, just a call to be careful what you say on the rulings boards when you're an elder.

[YourMathTeacher]

I have a pitchfork.

[Red Dragon Thorn]

Then I've got a flaming torch.

[STAMP]

[SomeKittens]

DODGE THIS!

[The M]

[Josh]

I know this thread got a little derailed, but I have a few thoughts on the whole "who controls the placed enhancement" thing.

I think that the argument about which player controls the placed enhancement begs the question "why does the placed enhancement work at all?"  If Agur's ability simply said "If (condition) then place a good enhancement on a hero" and that was his whole ability, would the enhancement activate when the hero enters battle, no matter who controls him?  Is there a game rule that says it would activate?  Weapons activate because they can be placed by game rule, but I can't think of anything that would allow the placed enhancement to work.  I believe that it is the second part of Agur's ability which allows the enhancement to activate.

The best example to aid my train of thought is Sower.  Suppose I attack with Sower and place a Gold enhancement on my opponent's Gomer.  Then, because I am an idiot, I use my Holy Grail to convert my opponent's Gomer to Gold brigade.  My opponent blocks with a 1/1 king, has inish, and plays an enhancement that causes two heroes to fight.  He selects his own converted Gomer to fight another hero.  At this point, there is a placed good Gold enhancement on his good Gold hero.  Does it activate by game rule?  Or does it remain there because Sower's ability says so?

Sower (Di)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may place a good Enhancement from hand on a human Evil Character. After battle, discard that Enhancement to convert that character to a Hero.

[YourMathTeacher]

From the REG:

Instant Special Abilities > Fortify or Place > Default Conditions
•      Cards placed on a character do not reactivate in battle unless the card(s) that placed them specify that they are reactivated in battle.


Sower does not specify that the placed enhancement can activate during battle, whereas a card placed by Agur does. I know that the PtB have tried to be consistent with ruling based on what the rules do address vs. what they do not address. This is an example of both.

[RTSmaniac]

the enhancement placed by sower would still be discarded after battle because it is the cost (do as much as possible). The true question is if the hero can still be converted to gold...can heros be converted to other brigades? I vote yes.