Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Pastor Marcus on July 12, 2010, 02:00:10 PM
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Are the Heroes being affected by this curse considered diseased?
Plagued with Disease Curse 1/5 Decrease all opponents' Heroes by 0/2 (0/3 if you have the fewest Lost Souls).
One of its identifiers is a disease.
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I and many others say yes, but some people disagree.
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So does that mean that your ruling is the official ruling? Or is the other one the official ruling?
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I'm not official, but I know I've heard both sides from those who are official.
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I am curious as to why it would not be a disease.
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I know for a fact Maly is strongly against it being one.
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I know for a fact Maly is strongly against it being one.
Oh, the "Tim whose opinion matters." ;)
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Hey,
I am curious as to why it would not be a disease.
Because it's not healable.
If a card with the title "Poisoned Jews" had the ability "Search draw pile for a hero and put it in play." Would the hero you searched for be poisoned?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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If a card with the title "Poisoned Jews" had the ability "Search draw pile for a hero and put it in play." Would the hero you searched for be poisoned?
That was a ridiculous example. PwD carries the normal function of a disease. I did not realize that being "healable" was a condition for being a disease.
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The only reason Plagued with Diseases is not healable is because it constantly activates. It has disease in the title and it decreases the abilities of characters, it just stays active.
From the REG: Healing cards remove the gained ability from the poison or disease card and its negative effect.
So, I would say you could try to heal from Plagued with Diseases, and the healing would last for the rest of the phase, but it would be re-applied the next phase, since these are considered instant abilities.
Random side note about diseases.... I just found this in the REG:
A poison or disease is a special ability that adds an ability to the card it targets. The gained ability is permanent, ongoing, and negative (from the perspective of the card targetted).
Could I poison or disease a hero with no SA, and they would lose protection from Windows of Narrow Light?
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And is Sick unto Death a disease too?
Sick unto Death Brown Enhancement Decrease all opponents heroes 5/5.
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And is Sick unto Death a disease too?
Sick unto Death Brown Enhancement Decrease all opponents heroes 5/5.
im on team 'is a disease'
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There is discussion on the other side of the boards about what exactly qualifies as a disease/poison. Tim's view (although it of course matters) is not the only possibility of how things will end up.
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and i always heard that brass serpent discards plagued with diseases...is this true?
Brass Serpent (Promo)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all poisons and diseases in play. Heal all Heroes not at full strength. • Errata: Discard all poisons and diseases in play. Heal all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Numbers 21:8 • Availability: Promotional cards (2001 District Tournament)
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and i always heard that brass serpent discards plagued with diseases...is this true?
I would guess so, but let's wait until we have a clear answer from the other side.
Because it's not healable.
Actually I would guess that it is healable with "Backwards Shadow", but again we'll wait for the clear answer from the other side.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FBackward%2520Shadow%2520%2528Ki%2529.gif&hash=b39ebea892e7b7b471c631de0e1552a21067302a)
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Yes, it's true.
It has the identifier Disease right on the card, I've always heard and played it that Brass Serpent can discard it.
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Are the Heroes being affected by this curse considered diseased?
Plagued with Disease Curse 1/5 Decrease all opponents' Heroes by 0/2 (0/3 if you have the fewest Lost Souls).
One of its identifiers is a disease.
The official answer appears to be "Yes".
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The official answer appears to be "Yes".
That is good to hear, and frankly less confusing.
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:maul: Face Of Death nuff Said :maul:
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Random side note about diseases.... I just found this in the REG:
A poison or disease is a special ability that adds an ability to the card it targets. The gained ability is permanent, ongoing, and negative (from the perspective of the card targetted).
Could I poison or disease a hero with no SA, and they would lose protection from Windows of Narrow Light?
Quoting this again, because I would like to know if I read the quote correctly.
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Random side note about diseases.... I just found this in the REG:
A poison or disease is a special ability that adds an ability to the card it targets. The gained ability is permanent, ongoing, and negative (from the perspective of the card targetted).
Could I poison or disease a hero with no SA, and they would lose protection from Windows of Narrow Light?
Quoting this again, because I would like to know if I read the quote correctly.
i dont see why not but im no elder either
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The same applies to Wasting Disease as well, right? I mean, I sure hope that is a disease, but if it is, who is technically the target of it? Everyone?
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Random side note about diseases.... I just found this in the REG:
A poison or disease is a special ability that adds an ability to the card it targets. The gained ability is permanent, ongoing, and negative (from the perspective of the card targetted).
Could I poison or disease a hero with no SA, and they would lose protection from Windows of Narrow Light?
Assuming that REG quote is accurate, then yes, I would say that WoNL would not protect a diseased hero.
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This is another reason that I don't think gained abilities should count as special abilities on characters.
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There's a difference between a gained ability and a gained "special" ability. Abilities are the strength and toughness of the card while special abilities are the words that give cards the ability to do special things. The disease is adding a gained ability that is permanent, ongoing and negative (like 0/-3). While a card like Gathering of Angels would add a gained "special" ability to a character that had been set aside with it.
So I say that Windows of Narrow Light would still protect a diseased character that originally had no special ability because it still doesn't have a "special" ability it has only gained a "regular" ability (a negative one).
Mike
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The fact it specifies that it's ongoing and negative makes me think it means it's a special ability that is added to the character.
Another card that makes me think so: Leper. It diseases a hero without anything being placed, and that ability keeps spreading. If leper is discarded, I'm almost positive the ability continues to work and spread, hence the diseased characters getting an additional special ability.
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It is not a special ability that they gain, it is a special ability that is outside of them (the disease) that is affecting them (much like wasting disease). They arent gaining any special ability, they are just having their numerical abilities reduced. As far as i know, the only way to gain special abilities is to use a set aside enhancement to gain one.
I agree with mjwolfe on this one. WoNL would still protect the heros even if wasting disease (or any other disease) was active.
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After thinking about it more, I agree with "Crustpope". A special ability activates in battle; poison abilities activate during the upkeep phase, and thus are not special abilties added to the character. They are more like the special abilities of placed cards, Artifacts, or Fortresses, i.e. they are special abilities that are always active.
I envision that that quote from the REG will be clarified in the new REG. As Tim has said repeatedly, Poison/Disease has been one of the categories undergoing the most revision.
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I agree with "Crustpope".
"I agree with Crustpope" THis is the best day of my life! From now on in my household, this is a national holiday!
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usually when someone agrees with me I give them a high5 or something like that
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Hey,
Are the Heroes being affected by this curse considered diseased?
Plagued with Disease Curse 1/5 Decrease all opponents' Heroes by 0/2 (0/3 if you have the fewest Lost Souls).
The official answer appears to be "Yes".
I just found this in the REG:
A poison or disease is a special ability that adds an ability to the card it targets. The gained ability is permanent, ongoing, and negative (from the perspective of the card targetted).
Is Plagued with Disease permanent? I'm going to say no. So looking at that statement from the REG we seem to have a problem.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Well, technically, if all diseases are permanent, and PWD was just officially confirmed to be a disease, shouldn't its decrease be permanent until the heroes are healed?
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Well, technically, if all diseases are permanent, and PWD was just officially confirmed to be a disease, shouldn't its decrease be permanent until the heroes are healed?
:o :o :o
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if thats the case, pwd just got a whole lot stronger. activate pwd, heroes permanently get 0/-2, next turn deactivate/reactivate another 0/-2, etc etc...
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maybe thats how it should have been to begin with.
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Making PWD like that would be way too strong. I could kill almost all of my opponents heros within a few turns. PWD does not act like a disease in this sense, yet it has the Disease identifier. SO there seems to be some real confusion over what a disease is and how long its effects last.
If this IS how diseases work then PWD is going in every one of my decks.
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Making PWD like that would be way too strong. I could kill almost all of my opponents heros within a few turns. PWD does not act like a disease in this sense, yet it has the Disease identifier. SO there seems to be some real confusion over what a disease is and how long its effects last.
If this IS how diseases work then PWD is going in every one of my decks.
FWIW, there are cards that specifically target diseases, besides the cards that specifically target artifacts. There will be ways to stop this. However, with that said, I don't think a permanent decrease was intended, especially considering Nobody's response. We will have to choose carefully and consider all the peripheral effects of this ruling.
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as maly has said before, a ruling should not be made based on the collateral caused by such a ruling. by the letter of the law, everytime pwd is activated, it is a permanent decrease.
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good point mkc
+1 chief
is it a disease? yes
does it work like a disease? yes
have we been playing it properly? NO!
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I feel "Weakness" coming on...
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Is Plagued with Disease permanent? I'm going to say no.
I agree that the decrease is not "permanent" in the sense of remaining if the curse is turned off. However, it is permanent in the sense that it is still decreased outside of battle while the curse is active. I also agree with Tim that the new REG will need to clarify how diseases work better.
Basically, it is normal for characters to have their abilities to go up or down while they are in battle. But for a character to have altered abilities while they are sitting in a territory, there must be either a disease that decreased them or a set aside that increased them. It seems like this could be the basis of a basic definition. What do you think Tim?
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Is Plagued with Disease permanent? I'm going to say no.
I agree that the decrease is not "permanent" in the sense of remaining if the curse is turned off. However, it is permanent in the sense that it is still decreased outside of battle while the curse is active. I also agree with Tim that the new REG will need to clarify how diseases work better.
Basically, it is normal for characters to have their abilities to go up or down while they are in battle. But for a character to have altered abilities while they are sitting in a territory, there must be either a disease that decreased them or a set aside that increased them. It seems like this could be the basis of a basic definition. What do you think Tim?
Then is "Crown of thorns" a disease? I think you also have to figure out how you are going to rule on PWD because this will come up at Nationals.
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Solution:
If all diseases work permanently, then simply tack on an extra clause to PWD that limits it to one decrease per hero, so it doesn't subtract 0/2 or 0/3 every phase.
I think that'd be the best solution. Give it a true disease ability that lasts until healed, but it stops it from being overpowered.
Regarding cards like Crown of Thorns, they are not diseases, so the decrease lasts for that one phase only, but it kicks back in during the next phase, so the decrease stays the same until the artifact is deactivated.
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I think you also have to figure out how you are going to rule on PWD because this will come up at Nationals.
I'm going to rule that PWD is a disease because it fits what Rob said on the other side of the board. Some diseases are cumulative, some are reiterative. PWD is the latter.
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I think you also have to figure out how you are going to rule on PWD because this will come up at Nationals.
I'm going to rule that PWD is a disease because it fits what Rob said on the other side of the board. Some diseases are cumulative, some are reiterative. PWD is the latter.
Except you cant rule like that because the REG says all diseases are Permanent. There is no distinction between the two.
Then if it is a disease it has to be permanent and I can layer multiple PWD at each activation. First time you go dwn 0/2 next time you go down 0/4 third time y ou go down 0/6 etc. because each activation is a new PWD that adds to the cumulative ability of the previous ones.
I think Maly is right that this cannot be a disease based on this right here. It is too OP and can wipe out all heros in a few turns. Now if you want to make the distinciton between permanent and reitertive in the new REG then I think that might save PWD as a disease, but as it stands, I dont think you can.
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What Rob says overrules what is in a REG that everyone knows is outdated. If Rob says, Plagued with Diseases is a disease, then that is what I'm going to rule it. But I'm also going to go with the reiterative interpretation because that is what the card seems to say based on a basic reading of it. (as an aside it would also probably break the game to allow it to be cumulative)
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Now all we need to know is whether or not PwD is a plague. :o
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i agree there is no room for a 'reiterative' interpretation because the current REG does not allow for it.
i also love how people get all paranoid and cry 'op, so broken' without having hard results to prove its worth. aocp is 'insta-poison-otk', but you dont see anything happening to it. 'bout time evil got some oomph.
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What Rob says overrules what is in a REG that everyone knows is outdated. If Rob says, Plagued with Diseases is a disease, then that is what I'm going to rule it. But I'm also going to go with the reiterative interpretation because that is what the card seems to say based on a basic reading of it. (as an aside it would also probably break the game to allow it to be cumulative)
Except now you are creating something that isnt there. THis card needs clarification big time. Because I would play it the broken way and I can defend my ruling by appealing to the current REG. If y ou ruled that way I would have you prove it by findingit in the REG.
We all Know how a card is suppose to work but that hasn't saved cards before so you need to stop trying to do it in this instance.. Either this card needs to be stripped of its identifier or it needs a play-as or an erratta, OR it needs to be played like a disease with the cumulative effect.
either way, it is a loose end that the elders need to clarify because you know this is (and was before this thread) in my teams deck.
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I think all you guys are way too worried about PwD being cumulative. "Ohs noes it kills heros!"
Yea. thats what diseases do. kills. we need to play the card the correct way and quit trying to come up with some way to fix it. Its exactly what the disease genre needed to be competitive and i strongly agree that it is not OPed. It def adds a new edge to the game, gives heros a chance to rescue or heal before death, makes a player wonder whether to put thier heros down before they can deal with the art, gets rid of pesky heros that cant even be blocked, fits into the definition of what a disease even is...ect.
As Eric Largent would say..."just use Brass Serpent"
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In a teams game my partner and I can kill off all your heros in territory in about a round and a half. (especially if we let you rescue a LS) From that point on, any new hero woudl start off with 0/6 and it would get worse from there. we would not even NEEED to play face of death because no one would be alive to be affected by it. This card is very powerful as a disease in Teams.
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I agree it'd be a little on the OP'd side if it added every phase.
What I WOULD like to see it do, is just permanently decrease every hero 0/2 or 0/3 until healed, regardless of if the curse is active. That would give diseases a nice competitive edge when paired with Weakness and other fun cards.
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maybe now miraculous hanky's will see more play. :-*
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Even if PWD isn't really changed in terms of how it works, I'd still love to see diseases/poisons become competitively powerful.
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i just cant deal with all the play as/ erratas. i think it hurts the game in the long run-but what can you do right?
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Even if PWD isn't really changed in terms of how it works, I'd still love to see diseases/poisons become competitively powerful.
I agree, this is a strategy that should be given a boost. Especially if there were more EC's that were immune or ignored diseased heros. High places made some diseases easier to place but that just gives up initiative so in a way it rewards the hero, EC's need to be able to ignore or be immune/play first against all diesased heros in order to make it truly powerful.
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I like how my comments about this card in fall of 2007 were largely ignored. Now others finally have started agreeing with what I stumbled upon... ::)
Kirk
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Which comments? And, I think you know I've loved this card for a long time now. :P
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My comments were that the card's ability did not fit the description of a disease based on the way the REG was worded. I made a ridiculously long post about it (since purged) that generated less than half a dozen responses.
Kirk
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...what I stumbled upon upon... ::)
Looks like you stumbled upon the word upon. :D
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Kirk, you were ahead of your time. 2 years in fact.
As an aside, most players don't play it like a disease. I faced it twice in Type 2 Multi and we only applied the effect once. 7 different guys...no one said boo.
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I think everyone here is arguing around the issue. From the current REG and the fact that it has a Disease identifier that hasn't been eratta'd away and Rob says so, the only way to rule this card currently is that it is a Disease and does stack cumulatively and permanently. Trying to argue that this is not the case is silly because the rules say it is. What people should really be discussing is the best way to hot fix this before the new REG comes out and hopefully has a better definition of Poison/Disease.
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Is it possible to fix this before Nationals?
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I think everyone here is arguing around the issue. From the current REG and the fact that it has a Disease identifier that hasn't been eratta'd away and Rob says so, the only way to rule this card currently is that it is a Disease and does stack cumulatively and permanently. Trying to argue that this is not the case is silly because the rules say it is. What people should really be discussing is the best way to hot fix this before the new REG comes out and hopefully has a better definition of Poison/Disease.
Exactly what I have been trying to say...except Pol says it of so more eloquently...
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I think everyone here is arguing around the issue. From the current REG and the fact that it has a Disease identifier that hasn't been eratta'd away and Rob says so, the only way to rule this card currently is that it is a Disease and does stack cumulatively and permanently. Trying to argue that this is not the case is silly because the rules say it is. What people should really be discussing is the best way to hot fix this before the new REG comes out and hopefully has a better definition of Poison/Disease.
cumulative and permanent? epic. I might have to build myself a new deck.
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Exactly what I have been trying to say...except Pol says it of so more eloquently...
That's because Polarius is an experienced TV spokesperson.
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Exactly what I have been trying to say...except Pol says it of so more eloquently...
That's because Polarius is an experienced TV spokesperson.
For fireworks.
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Go ahead and build your PwD decks for Nationals but I recommend that y'all have a backup deck for when it's ruled that PwD works the same way it's always been played. :)
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Go ahead and build your PwD decks for Nationals but I recommend that y'all have a backup deck for when it's ruled that PwD works the same way it's always been played. :)
I've rebuilt my current deck around 5 times already. one more time can't hurt.
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Go ahead and build your PwD decks for Nationals but I recommend that y'all have a backup deck for when it's ruled that PwD works the same way it's always been played. :)
+1
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Go ahead and build your PwD decks for Nationals but I recommend that y'all have a backup deck for when it's ruled that PwD works the same way it's always been played. :)
Soooo, you will be stripping it of its status as a disease?
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Soooo, you will be stripping it of its status as a disease?
Nope, it'll just play the same way as it always has. The definition of disease might change, but you shouldn't worry about it as long as cards keep playing the way they always have.
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Soooo, you will be stripping it of its status as a disease?
Yes. The card will now be called Plagued by Namaan.