Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: adotson85 on February 09, 2011, 02:33:08 AM
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Now that search and look abilites have been determined to be different, does Nazareth still stop Philisitine Outpost from getting an evil card from deck?
Philistine Outpost (TP)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory. Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks. • Play As: When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and return it in your territory. Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: I Samuel 14:12
Nazareth (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect cards in your territory and hand from shuffle by an opponent. Protect all decks from search abilities. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 13:57
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Yes. Your deck is protected from PO's search.
You can pay the cost by discarding PO and searching the discard.
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Yes. Your deck is protected from PO's search.
You can pay the cost by discarding PO and searching the discard.
So Naz's ability to discard an evil card from deck is an implied search ability?
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Yes.
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+1
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Thanks. Thought it was a search, but just wanted to make sure.
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Now that search and look abilites have been determined to be different
Citation please.
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Now that search and look abilites have been determined to be different
Citation please.
www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=25328.0;msg=399719 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=25328.0;msg=399719)
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If look and search abilities are different, then can I use Search(c) with Naz up?
"Look through draw pile and add a card to hand. Shuffle draw pile."
Granted, that's from memory, but it's basically the same wording as Susanna. I always thought look was the same as search if you're changing something about the deck, like adding a card to hand? ???
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If look and search abilities are different, then can I use Search(c) with Naz up?
"Look through draw pile and add a card to hand. Shuffle draw pile."
Granted, that's from memory, but it's basically the same wording as Susanna. I always thought look was the same as search if you're changing something about the deck, like adding a card to hand? ???
Well the FooF version says search so I know that doesn't work. The C deck version has it listed as a search ability in the play as so I would say it doesn't work either.
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Well the FooF version says search so I know that doesn't work. The C deck version has it listed as a search ability in the play as so I would say it doesn't work either.
I know it's classified as a search, I am just wondering why it is different than Susanna or Divination, which apparently are not search abilities. They do the same thing; they even use the same wording! There could be a play-as on Susanna that says: "Search the top X cards of your deck for a card, add it to hand, and place the rest beneath deck. CBN." and it wouldn't change how the card is played.
If the difference between look and search isn't the definition of searching, which I perceive as 'look and move a card out of the deck or discard pile' (which I think should be the determining factor), but in fact the quantity of the searching; as in, 'search abilities pertain to the whole deck, anything else is a look ability', then, imo, that's wrong. You're still searching, no matter the size.
Help me to understand please ???
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It would appear to me that the old Search gets around Naz.
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Based on the wording, Confusion & Warriors Gabriel also works! WOOT! Deck discard is not dead! ;D
False Peace has the same wording too!
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It would appear to me that the old Search gets around Naz.
After some research I agree. Not sure now much I like look and search being different though. Try explaining to a new player that the non-FooF Search SA is not a search ability, but is instead a look ability.
So this brings me back to my original question. How do we know Outpost is an implied search and not an implied look?
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Either by defeault (search when not stated) or by definition.
I think that Susanna, Divination, etc should be different abilities than searching but the old language kind of confuses this.
If we don't just make them the same then I propose that search is an ability that lets you go through your whole deck and take a card. I would say "look" is more like a subset of reveal where it is only revealed to the one person instead of everyone and either just looks at the cards (John) or looks at a portion of the deck and takes a card from that. To me, that seems to be the difference.
Of course the old language doesn't really fit with this, so maybe it would better for the game to simplify it into variations of one ability.
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Most of us are aware that old cards like Confusion, Search(c), False Peace, etc. often don't have modern wording. All these examples have play as clarifying that they are in fact a Search ability.
If we don't just make them the same then I propose that search is an ability that lets you go through your whole deck and take a card. I would say "look" is more like a subset of reveal where it is only revealed to the one person instead of everyone and either just looks at the cards (John) or looks at a portion of the deck and takes a card from that. To me, that seems to be the difference.
+1
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What ashame it doesn't work with Nazareth in play :'(
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Most of us are aware that old cards like Confusion, Search(c), False Peace, etc. often don't have modern wording. All these examples have play as clarifying that they are in fact a Search ability.
If we don't just make them the same then I propose that search is an ability that lets you go through your whole deck and take a card. I would say "look" is more like a subset of reveal where it is only revealed to the one person instead of everyone and either just looks at the cards (John) or looks at a portion of the deck and takes a card from that. To me, that seems to be the difference.
+1
Don't know why I'm defending Nazereth here but...
That definition is too broad, all search abilities let you look through a portion of your deck (all current search would be look unless it specified you had to look through your whole deck, then it would be search).
Alternatively, if you stricken the definition of look Susanna will become a search (X can be > the amount of cards in your deck).
Side note: What of cards that don't require you to look at or search through your deck what so ever to complete? If I use Bronze Laver, I can fufil PO's SA without looking or searching through my deck.
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Most of us are aware that old cards like Confusion, Search(c), False Peace, etc. often don't have modern wording. All these examples have play as clarifying that they are in fact a Search ability.
Not trying to be rude here, but Susanna & Divination also have a play as that says "search." So to say that the old cards don't work but the new ones do, when they have the exact same wording on the card & play as, doesn't make any since. So either the play as on the new cards needs to be removed or the old cards should work if the new ones do.
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Not trying to be rude here, but Susanna & Divination also have a play as that says "search." So to say that the old cards don't work but the new ones do, when they have the exact same wording on the card & play as, doesn't make any since. So either the play as on the new cards needs to be removed or the old cards should work if the new ones do.
+1 the "play as" on those two cards is wrong and needs to be removed.
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Fair enough! :)
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Disregard errata disguised as play-as. None of the cards in question here have any ability different than what's printed on the card. Old Search, Confusion, Warriors Gabe and False Peace are all look abilities until they get errata and can work in spite of Nazareth or HSR.
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You could just make Search Abilities the ones that you have to shuffle after and look has a method in which to the order is decided that isn't shuffling, Susanna and Divination (and I guess the John Promo as well) would have look abilities, which are more like reveal, where as search abilities shuffle the deck after.
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I propose we rule the old search, Gabriel and others the same as we rule Susanna and Divination. For consistencies sake. I see no reason why they should be ruled differently then the new cards.
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I really don't care whether or not Susanna or Divination are search abilities or not, but I do think that False Peace, The Old Search, Warriors Gabriel, etc. should be searches because there is no difference in how it works compared to cards that say "Search"
And I understand the wording issues due to lack of consistency in the older sets, so I would prefer to see abilities be defined by how they work rather than the exact wording (even though it may be confusing to players who are just starting or annoying to some people)
The biggest problem is that we need well defined abilities and people to consistently making it work (and a good place to find the information)
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I really don't care whether or not Susanna or Divination are search abilities or not, but I do think that False Peace, The Old Search, Warriors Gabriel, etc. should be searches because there is no difference in how it works compared to cards that say "Search"
And I understand the wording issues due to lack of consistency in the older sets, so I would prefer to see abilities be defined by how they work rather than the exact wording (even though it may be confusing to players who are just starting or annoying to some people)
I guess I am just the opposite, I believe cards should work how they are written unless there is a compelling reason to change them. Look at Warriors Battle prayer it is ruled how it is worded. Woman's Great Faith is also played as worded. I don't think we should just make exceptions for specific cards and not others. Either cards are played as worded (except for errata), or they aren't. Anything in between is unacceptable. Sometime older cards get to do special things because of their wording, I think that is a good thing.
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I agree with the above and feel that Susanna and Divination's "look abilities" should be "looked" at again and considered search abilities based on this part of the REG.
Instant Special Abilities > Search, Reveal, or Exchange
General Description
A search card allows you to look at the cards in a deck, artifact pile, or a player’s hand. Searching implies only you see the targeted card(s). Reveal means that all players see the targeted card(s). Random selection from an opponent’s hand or selecting from your own hand are not considered a search or a reveal. You may not look at cards in any draw pile or discard pile (other than the top card of the discard pile) unless a special ability on a card allows a player to search a deck (see Beginning a Game).
A revealed card is considered to be in the same location from which it is revealed. Revealing a card makes the card visible to all players.
How to Play
A search can be used effectively to do one of the following: (1) find a card to use in the current battle, (2) find a card to use in a future battle, (3) see what cards remain in one of your opponent’s piles, or (4) see what cards remain in one of your piles. Play proceeds according to initiative rules. You must wait until the action of the enhancement card is completed before you can interrupt with another enhancement card. Your opponent may not block or play an enhancement while you are searching.
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I really don't care whether or not Susanna or Divination are search abilities or not, but I do think that False Peace, The Old Search, Warriors Gabriel, etc. should be searches because there is no difference in how it works compared to cards that say "Search"
And I understand the wording issues due to lack of consistency in the older sets, so I would prefer to see abilities be defined by how they work rather than the exact wording (even though it may be confusing to players who are just starting or annoying to some people)
I guess I am just the opposite, I believe cards should work how they are written unless there is a compelling reason to change them. Look at Warriors Battle prayer it is ruled how it is worded. Woman's Great Faith is also played as worded. I don't think we should just make exceptions for specific cards and not others. Either cards are played as worded (except for errata), or they aren't. Anything in between is unacceptable. Sometime older cards get to do special things because of their wording, I think that is a good thing.
Why can't some cards work the way they are worded and some play differently due to breakage of the game? Do you really want to play the literal ability on TRA?
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I have no problem with cards acting like they are worded, but Abilities on cards should be defined by a set of Keywords (such as they are trying to do in the REG and such) rather than trying to make cards that do different things defined by the same keyword because of old wording.
Susanna and Divination are very much like both searches and reveals so I have little issue with making it work like either one, but if "Look" is defined as more like a "Reveal" rather than a "Search" that shouldn't affect things that work like "Searches" like Gabriel or Search.
Yes in theory in a perfect world all abilities would be described by proper and consistent keywords that are well defined and easy to understand (assuming you have access to all the documentation and such) but since that's not how the game has always been and Redemption doesn't like doing mass erratas to fix all the wordings on cards (or at least they don't do it)
But I think abilities that do the same thing should be the same abilities and if they do different things they should be different. But as I already said Susanna and Divination do very similar things to both searches and reveals so I don't mind either ruling (except that it makes decks using them weaker to anti searches but that's minor to making the game work)
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Why can't some cards work the way they are worded and some play differently due to breakage of the game? Do you really want to play the literal ability on TRA?
You might have missed me saying so, but I did say with the exception of errata. I understand some cards have to change due to breakage of the game. I also understand that if a card does not break the game it is normally playes as worded(like my examples Great Faith, Battle prayer, etc.) I just feel that if they don't break the game they should be left alone.
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The problem with Susanna and Divination is that they are more like search abilities than look abilities (ex. Foretelling Angel, Strength Revealed) in my mind.
I was half-kidding when I asked if the old Search should be stopped by Naz; of course it should, it's the very definition of searching. Just because the word look is in the ability doesn't mean it should just be a 'look' ability: it can be both, which is exactly what Divination and Susanna are.
By the by, what is the exact definition of a 'look ability' anyways?
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A search ability with a limited scope.
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A search ability with a limited scope.
would that include eve
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A search ability with a limited scope.
I'm not an elder. This is what I think defines a "look" ability, which is different than search!
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Look abilities and Search abilities were recently ruled to be distinct. The REG needs to be updated, but if I recall correctly, the distinction has been made in one of the New Rulings threads. As to the old "search" cards that say "look at draw pile...shuffle" they will probably either receive errata, or Look at and Search will be defined as follows:
Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and possibly perform an action with one or more of those cards. The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default.
Naz stops Search abilities, but not look at abilities.
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Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
So, Zeresh isn't a look ability?
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I'm going to try to modify Prof's suggested definitions how I understand them:
Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."
Naz stops Search abilities, but not look at abilities.
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Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
So, Zeresh isn't a look ability?
She does say Search, but her ability does function as a look at ability instead of a search, so she'll get some sort of clarification on that point. I'm not sure why you bolded the part you did; if you mean that because you have to reveal a card so that your opponent knows it is evil, that would be a part of the action you perform as a default to both Search and Look At abilities. However, you don't reveal any other cards of your deck, so her ability is in fact a look at ability the way I understand it.
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Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
So, Zeresh isn't a look ability?
She does say Search, but her ability does function as a look at ability instead of a search, so she'll get some sort of clarification on that point. I'm not sure why you bolded the part you did; if you mean that because you have to reveal a card so that your opponent knows it is evil, that would be a part of the action you perform as a default to both Search and Look At abilities. However, you don't reveal any other cards of your deck, so her ability is in fact a look at ability the way I understand it.
Whoa, that was weird. I haven't gotten used to mod powers yet I guess, since I totally just changed your post instead of quoting you. In this case I agree with Ring Wraith... ;)
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Whoaa, I guess I have a multi-personality disorder. I just answered my own question and I don't even remember typing it!
Got it. I was thinking it was connected with the "perform an action with those cards" for some reason.
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I'm going to try to modify Prof's suggested definitions how I understand them:
Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."
Naz stops Search abilities, but not look at abilities.
This looks pretty good to me. The two main differnetiating factors I see between look and search are: 1) Shuffling or not shuffling your deck after the ability completes and 2) The number of cards you get to view. I'm just glad an effort is being made to make a top down ruling instead of trying to rule on specific cards on a case by case basis.
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Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."
Thats going to be confusing though. We will now have cards that say "search", that aren't search abilities and cards that say "look" which aren't look abilities. I thought we were trying to make the rules simpler? Why can't it just be search cards are cards that say search, and look cards say look. What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?
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What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?
Well, that's a huge portion of it. T2 was overwhelmed by search abilities, and Nazareth was created to counter that. Search and False Peace are two of the worst offenders, and wouldn't be changed at all if read directly.
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Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."
Thats going to be confusing though. We will now have cards that say "search", that aren't search abilities and cards that say "look" which aren't look abilities. I thought we were trying to make the rules simpler? Why can't it just be search cards are cards that say search, and look cards say look. What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?
I am usually a fan of playing cards as they are worded, but in this case since look and search were ruled as different abilities then we need clear cut definitions of what each ability is. Yes, the card may say one thing, but the action being performed is different from what the card actually reads. Life was easier when search and look were the same ability lol.
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Thats going to be confusing though. We will now have cards that say "search", that aren't search abilities and cards that say "look" which aren't look abilities. I thought we were trying to make the rules simpler? Why can't it just be search cards are cards that say search, and look cards say look. What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?
While that's certainly not the ideal situation, abilities do need to be defined in Redemption. It was decided that "look at" and "Search" are distinct abilities, so they need separate definitions.
That leaves us with two possibilities:
1. Saying that a card that says "Search" is a "Search" ability even if it does what "Look at" is defined as, and saying that a card that says "Look at" is a "Look at" ability even if it does what "Search" is defined as.
2. Saying that a card that says "Search" but does what "Look at" is defined as has a "Look at" ability, and saying that a card that says "Look at" but does what "Search" does has a "Search" ability.
Either way, something will be inconsistent. The second option is preferable, however, because it favors the rules over specific cards, instead of vice versa.
Life was easier when search and look were the same ability lol.
I don't disagree with that; I was not really adamantly for or against that change, but some Elders felt it was necessary.
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Here are the main differences between the defaults for "look at" and "search":
Look at:
- no other actions are taken by default. It takes a second ability to actually do something other than "look at" the cards.
- keep cards in same location after the look
Search for:
- Search is always paired with the word "for." By default, you get to "add it to hand." A different ability (such as "discard" or "put it in play") may supersede this.
- shuffle after the search
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Here are the main differences between the defaults for "look at" and "search":
Look at:
- no other actions are taken by default. It takes a second ability to actually do something other than "look at" the cards.
- keep cards in same location after the look
Search:
- Search is always paired with the word "for." By default, you get to "add it to hand." A different ability (such as "discard" or "put it in play") may supersede this.
- shuffle after the search
The problem with the bolded part is that both Divination & Susanna put cards (potentially) on the bottom of the deck, so they do not stay in the same location. Plus for those two cards you "add it to hand" the cards you are looking for!
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Remember that I said "default"
"Default" means "What you do unless specified otherwise." If something else is stated, then you do that instead of the default.
If I have a card that says "look at your deck," then I put the cards right back where they were. Nothing else was stated, so the default is that the cards stay exactly as they were.
If I have a card that says "search your deck for an OT good card," then I get to put the OT good card in my hand, even though it was not stated. The add to hand is the default. Then I shuffle the deck, even though it was not stated. The shuffle is the default.
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Yay! More top-down rulings!
Pol, I have removed your image. If you would like an explanation, please PM me. ~ RDT.
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I just have to ask.
What was wrong with Look being a search ability? What was the reasoning for undoing that ruling?
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Lambo,
The discussion happened before I was Elderized.
But the gist of it was that most of the Elders were unaware that it had been ruled a search ability, and during playtesting of Nazareth we treated 'Look at' as a seperate abilitie from 'Search'. So when it was brought up, most of the Elders at the time simply said announce that Look at is in fact different.
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Ah. Yeah I was quite confused, because I was pretty sure some playtesters had made the ruling. I think this was prior to the elder system.