Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on August 24, 2009, 03:53:37 PM
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Philistine Outpost protects all Sites from being placed under decks. Hormah says to "Place this Site and its contents under deck." Since Philistine Outpost does not protect contents of Sites from being placed under deck, do I get to place the Lost Soul without losing Hormah?
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I don't see why not. Nice find!
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Philistine Outpost
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory. Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks. • Identifiers: None • Verse: I Samuel 14:12
Hormah
Type: Site • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If your human Evil Character is discarded, you may place this Site and its contents beneath owner’s deck. • Identifiers: Canaan • Verse: Judges 1:17
It is a triggered rather than a cost/benefit SA so, yes, you may place the lost soul beneath your deck as the "may" allows you to do one or the other or both.
Of course, that means you never have to discard Hormah. :o
Think about it. If that is how the "may" is interpreted for 2K Horses, then it works for Hormah.
Two Thousand Horses
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Holder may interrupt the battle, draw 2 cards from the top of own draw pile, and play the next enhancement. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: II Kings 18:23
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I think this ability qualifies for the "do as much as you can" program. ...Sick. Do you know what that means? In T2, you could have three (I think...) Hormahs in play with lost souls in them with Philly Outpost active, use PO to discard a Philly in your deck and then fish it out to play, and then put all the lost souls from the Hormahs on the bottom of your deck and keep recycling over and over. ...Dude...
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Actually, you could have 5 Hormahs. :)
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:o And no cost...awesome...
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Justin told me last week that he brought it up with the playtesters. He and I both believe that one of the two cards should/will be errata'd. It seems a bit overpowered to be able to put one (or two) LS's below draw pile every time you are attacked.
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There will be an errata somewhere; the playtest group is deciding between these two options:
Philistine Outpost
"When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory. Protect Sites and their contents from being placed beneath decks."
Hormah
"If your human Evil Character is discarded you may place this Site beneath owner's deck to place its contents beneath owner's deck."
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I'd go with the errata on Hormah. My logic is that Hormah lends itself to being a cost/benefit card, while errata on PO looks more like a hot fix. In other words, the Hormah errata makes sense in a vacuum, the PO one does not.
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Justin told me last week that he brought it up with the playtesters. He and I both believe that one of the two cards should/will be errata'd. It seems a bit overpowered to be able to put one (or two) LS's below draw pile every time you are attacked.
Well your human EC still has to die. There is still a cost and once you run out of human EC's you can no longer do the trick...but still it is overpowered (yet cool) and will prob be errata'd.
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I agree. If either are errated, Hormah should be.
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It would also just be a shame to eratta a card that just came out.
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Rob agrees with that last sentiment, FWIW
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I'm shocked no one has abused this in playtesting. It was definately the first thing I thought of when I was making my Philly Steak deck.
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I'm sorry but giving errata to Hormah is not the answer. It creates inconsistency where we already have consistency.
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I'm sorry but giving errata to Hormah is not the answer. It creates inconsistency where we already have consistency. I believe the new card should get the errata.
You're going to have to explain that post, because it made no sense to me.
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We all know that in an SA that contains more than one ability following a "may" the player may do zero, one or more, or all of the abilities as the "may" applies to all of them.
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That would mean that Hormah needs the errata anyway because then you wouldn't have to place the site beneath but just place the lost souls beneath. (IE: may place site beneath, may place LS beneath)
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I fixed my other post. Errata is not needed for any card. This combo is NOT broken. There are plenty of counters at this point.
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that and one human EC has to die every time.
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Except that Philistine Outpost will let you D/C a Philistine from your deck and then put it in play, satisfying Hormah's ability with no real cost at all. I would be all for leaving both cards alone, but it seems that the PTB have already decided it's broken.
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that and one human EC has to die every time.
yeah thats what I said but everyone passed over it. Still its broken because that would be a powerful defense with hormah and 15 human EC's...though I guess you need to draw Hormah. I don't know I think they just need to experiment with using Hormah with Philistine Outpost and see if it is broken or not.
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... but it seems that the PTB have already decided it's broken.
That is unfortunate. :-\
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I also think that Hormah and not Philistine Outpost should be errata'd. My reason is that the errata on Philistine Outpost would prevent the many abilities that place lost souls (and not sites) beneath the deck: the withdraw, demon discard, and anti-angel lost souls come to mind. I don't see any such repercussions from making an errata on Hormah.
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IMO Hormah's ability is way to broad. This would be better, "if your human evil character is discarded by an opponent....."
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That's never what it's done or been intended to do.
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how exactly do you know what it was 'intended' to do?
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I'm psychic, didn't you know?
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nice...now everything makes perfect sense! :)
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Yes, but he already knew that ;)
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Hm... I don't see how this is broken in type I. I mean... that's ONE ls... there's still so many more to rescue. It's NOT broken. Is this where I get to use my national champion prestige to try and persuade everyone? No? Darn.... ;)
In type II... well I suck at type II so I have no idea... but it still seems like it would be even less powerful, seeing that you have MORE ls, and MORE ways to get rid of sites... or even just play one of many fortress discarders.
Guys... if this errata hasn't been made... please don't make it. Please, I'd love to play someone who uses this... I doubt it would make a big impact on the game.
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Hm... I don't see how this is broken in type I. I mean... that's ONE ls... there's still so many more to rescue. It's NOT broken. Is this where I get to use my national champion prestige to try and persuade everyone? No? Darn.... ;)
One lost soul per Rescue.
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Wah...?
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So here's what would theoretically happen: I place 1 (or 2) LS's in Hormah. I have PO out. You attack me, and I discard a Philistine from my deck, to put him in play (using outpost). I just discarded an EC, so I get to put one (or two) LS's on the bottom of my deck. My next turn I put a LS in Hormah. Then it's your turn, you attack me. I discard a Philistine from my deck, put him in play, and another LS goes to the bottom. Then this happens over and over again.
So I get to put Lost Souls under my deck for virtually no cost. All I have to do is have a few generic Philistines (or just the one that can get any Philistine out of the deck/discard). Obviously it won't last forever, but it certainly could last for quite awhile.
I love Philistines, and I love Philistine Outpost. But I don't think we should let it be so powerful that everyone uses it.
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How are you getting Hormah back each turn?
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Outpost protects them from being placed beneath.
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Outpost protects them from being placed beneath.
*facepalm*
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It's bad enough when 2-3 Lost Souls are in the last few cards of someone's deck just from a random shuffle, I don't think we need to allow combos this easy to do that.
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Looking at Hormah alone, why would anyone place Hormah beneath deck anyway? It's needed an eratta for a while, but no one has noticed.
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Looking at Hormah alone, why would anyone place Hormah beneath deck anyway? It's needed an eratta for a while, but no one has noticed.
Agreed. It should say like...
If your human Evil Character is discarded, you may place this Site under the deck to place all cards on this site under the deck.
Something where MAY doesnt make both parts optional. I see this card as a cost and effect. you put it under, and everything follows.
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Well, if Hormah gets an errata to play as intended, then PLEASE, by all means, give Split Altar errata to play as intended.
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Well, if Hormah gets an errata to play as intended, then PLEASE, by all means, give Split Altar errata to play as intended.
I second this.
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Cards don't get errata to become MORE powerful, they get it to become LESS powerful (or do something that makes legal sense).
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Split altar isnt nearly as broken (and would be more broken if played as intended) than the hormah/PO combo. If this combo is left alone, Every type 2 player will be playing Philitine outpost decks and the only counters would be either to negate PO's SA, play with the Thorns LS, or keep attacking with Soldier of God.
well that or play Anoobedoobedoo x5
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And we can't have that, for we all know that Black is supposed to be weak and played by crazy type 2 people :P
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well that or play Anoobedoobedoo x5
And therein lies the reason I do not want anything done with this issue. No errata. No rule change. No pork barrel spending! ;)
But seriously, folks, it's not even as powerful as TGT! So please leave it alone. Just because most people do not currently use any of the numerous counters to this combo doesn't mean it's broken. We haven't even had a tournament yet where it's been used! Don't make a decision until at least some districts have been played.
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High places and set Fire/Spreading mildew/Image of jealousy/Destructive Sin(?) would make short work of PO. Joshua and T-blast. The Thorns LS, Hidden Treasures and Annoobedoobedoo x5. Rescuing with Faithful Servant (not soldier of God but the OTHER guy, sorry about that) or Paladin the Fighter. Nuke all their generic Phillies out of the d/c Pile (there are only 4 or 5 so one or two Wonders Forgotten/Forgotten History should do it.
Im sure there are other counters to this card but it does mean that strategies will have to change a lot.
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Who's "Annoobedoobedoo"?
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I think he's the guy that discards Ishabibbanibbaboo
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A noo beedoobeedoo.
noo = new ;)
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...
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A new Beginning perhaps? :)
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:miss:
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A new Beginning perhaps? :)
I cant believe bubbleboy, who lives in Minnesota, didn't get that right away. Dont they play ANB decks in that land up north? ;)
Anyway, my Prophets/Emperors deck would have no problem with this. I play with 2 copies of thorns and 5 ANB's, but just to be sure, if this isnt errattaed, I wold probably modify my defense to include more fort killers to nuke PO in territory.
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:miss:
Anoobedoobedoo = A new Beginning
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I cant believe bubbleboy, who lives in Minnesota, didn't get that right away. Dont they play ANB decks in that land up north? ;)
Maybe in T2, but I don't think I've ever seen it played in an actual game.
Anyway, why are you calling it that and how does that card help what we were discussing?
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I think he's the guy that discards Ishabibbanibbaboo
Nice. My playgroup just calls "Ishabibbanibbaboo".... Bob.
~Marti
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When you are making a rescue attempt, ANB shuffles all cards in play (except the LS's and Your EC's if you play it right) so alll those hormahs would go bye bye, before PO has a chance to d/c a generic Philistine. The LS's would stay in play (if you play with the Thorns LS and you get to draw 11 cards while they get to draw only 8 and you get to continue with your RA as long as you have a hero to rescue with. That will reset the game and keep ti balanced until they get PO back and some more hormah's (and get rid of your Thorns LS's) When they DO get PO again, Reset the game again...and again...and again until you win. lol
With 5 Searches on Offense and 5 false peaces on Defense i am almost guarranteed to be able to search for the counters that will help me defeat my opponents strategy whether it is Choose the blocker or Philitines.
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Cards don't get errata to become MORE powerful, they get it to become LESS powerful (or do something that makes legal sense).
i thought the new goshen is going to be errata'd to make it more powerful?
High places and set Fire/Spreading mildew/Image of jealousy/Destructive Sin(?) would make short work of PO.
ds and ioj does not work on philistine outpost.
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i thought the new goshen is going to be errata'd to make it more powerful?
IMO, the new goshen is going to be errata'd to make it work the way they meant it to work.
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but that would have been the same case for split altar...and it still hasn't been done.
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i thought the new goshen is going to be errata'd to make it more powerful?
IMO, the new goshen is going to be errata'd to make it work the way they meant it to work.
How did they want it to work, and how does it work any differently?
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i thought the new goshen is going to be errata'd to make it more powerful?
IMO, the new goshen is going to be errata'd to make it work the way they meant it to work.
How did they want it to work, and how does it work any differently?
The new goshen should work just like the old goshen, just with the new ability with Gen and Exodus heroes. Right now, you can't
The rulebook says that you can add or remove characters in a fortress during your Prep Phase "as described on the fortress." Since Goshen does not describe any removal process, your heroes are stuck there until either a "Play As/Errata" is issued, or the new REG/rulebook says otherwise.
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The new goshen should work just like the old goshen, just with the new ability with Gen and Exodus heroes. Right now, you can't
Wow, that's some stank right there.
BTW people, hopefully you have seen this: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17574 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17574)
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I don't think that's the case, or else you would never be allowed to take an Artifact off Solomon's Temple. There should be an "or" somewhere in that definition.
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I don't think that's the case, or else you would never be allowed to take an Artifact off Solomon's Temple. There should be an "or" somewhere in that definition.
I always thought that Solomon's Temple/The Tabernacle/Z's Temple were treated as being able to hold one active artifact, so when you deactivated the artifact in it, it would automatically return to your artifact pile and you could then put a new active one in the Temple/Tabernacle. Is that incorrect?
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The new goshen should work just like the old goshen, just with the new ability with Gen and Exodus heroes. Right now, you can't
The rulebook says that you can add or remove characters in a fortress during your Prep Phase "as described on the fortress." Since Goshen does not describe any removal process, your heroes are stuck there until either a "Play As/Errata" is issued, or the new REG/rulebook says otherwise.
I thought it was a default rule for every fortress that you can add or remove them from the fortress during their prep phase unless the fortress stated otherwise. None of the new fortresses say anything about adding or removing from the fortress (Judges seat?) yet that is how they are played. I dont think Goshen needs any eratta because it operates due to a game rule and not a Special ability rule. (if anything the rulebook needs to be changed to reflect the new operation of fortresses)
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I don't think that's the case, or else you would never be allowed to take an Artifact off Solomon's Temple. There should be an "or" somewhere in that definition.
Read this: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17376.msg273680#msg273680 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17376.msg273680#msg273680)
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I cant believe bubbleboy, who lives in Minnesota, didn't get that right away. Dont they play ANB decks in that land up north? ;)
Is Brett Favre a Viking? ;)
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I cant believe bubbleboy, who lives in Minnesota, didn't get that right away. Dont they play ANB decks in that land up north? ;)
Is Brett Favre a Viking? ;)
Well, he doesn't seem to be trying very hard right now. ;)
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ENOUGH! No one else insults Brett Favre! ::)
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ENOUGH! No one else insults Brett Favre! ::)
Then you better stay away from The Onion....
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/packers_tell_fans_they_gave_favre (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/packers_tell_fans_they_gave_favre)
A bit old, but so so funny.
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Wow, The Onion. :D I used to read those at the U of M when I was taking math classes there - funny stuff, although I can't remember much of it.
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Stop it! AGH!
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Here is the final verdict: Errata for Hormah.
Hormah - If your human Evil Character is discarded you may place this Site beneath owner's deck to place its contents beneath owner's deck.
This has been added to the errata section of the board, along with an edited entry for King Ahaz.