Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: browarod on June 26, 2015, 12:27:07 PM
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If a character with Peace placed on it also has a weapon, would the weapon be tossed when the hero enters battle?
The reason I ask is because I believe weapons activate as an extension of the hero's "entering-battle" state, so I think the weapon would need to complete before the character is considered "in battle" and since Peace specifies "is in battle" for the condition it seems like the weapon would have already been considered "played" prior to Peace's toss becoming active.
Peace - Place on your clay or blue Hero: When this Hero is in battle alone, toss all Enhancements played this battle. Cannot be interrupted.
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I'm no expert, but the way I'd rule is that if peace was placed after the weapon the weapon would not be tossed if the weapon was placed afterward it would be tossed.
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I seem to recall this being discussed before...I'll try to find it later...
However, my position is that Peace cannot trigger until after all other abilities complete. That is, it cannot insert itself between other abilities activating, and thus cannot complete the check of "if in battle alone" while there are still character/weapon abilities completing (consistent with other rulings on similarly-worded abilities).
Therefore, a weapon on a character cannot be Tossed by Peace. However, a character with a Toss ability itself will cause the weapons to be tossed, since it is already active by the time the weapon is 'played'.
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...Peace cannot trigger until after all other abilities complete. That is, it cannot insert itself between other abilities activating, and thus cannot complete the check of "if in battle alone" while there are still character/weapon abilities completing (consistent with other rulings on similarly-worded abilities).
Therefore, a weapon on a character cannot be Tossed by Peace. However, a character with a Toss ability itself will cause the weapons to be tossed, since it is already active by the time the weapon is 'played'.
+1
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That's exactly what I thought the case was. Great to have double confirmation, thanks Redoubter and Gabe! :D
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So if there was an evil enhancement that said negate all good enhancements played this battle it only negates good enhancements played afterwards ???
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So if there was an evil enhancement that said negate all good enhancements played this battle it only negates good enhancements played afterwards ???
You can retroactively negate cards because that's what negate does. Since toss doesn't do that, you can't retroactively Toss enhancements.
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Negate does exactly what it says it does. It undoes what it targets. Its only retroactive because it can target things already played. Discard, capture, remove from the game also can target cards already played.
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Negate does exactly what it says it does. It undoes what it targets. Its only retroactive because it can target things already played. Discard, capture, remove from the game also can target cards already played.
Correct...and Toss doesn't target things already played, just like prevent doesn't. So I'm not sure I see your point.
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I don't see why not if it says toss all enhancements played. And there's nothing in the definition of toss that I see indicating it can only toss enhancements you will play.
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I don't see why not if it says toss all enhancements played. And there's nothing in the definition of toss that I see indicating it can only toss enhancements you will play.
How to Play
A toss ability allows a player to play an enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the numbers or special abilities of the enhancement, the enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character by X/X (where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement).
The definition is clear that it does not affect enhancements that are already played. It is an alternative method of 'playing' enhancements. If you have already played an enhancement (put it in play to activate its special ability), then it is not Tossed. That is not the ability that would be used in that situation.
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Ok that makes more sense, perhaps peace should have been worded more clearly like Foreign Spearman. Either way there's a slight problem. I look at the order of the operations and it says gained abilities activate before weapons. I suppose Peace you could considered peace a gained ability but its not obvious. If Peace definitely isn't what kind of ability is it? If its not gained then the order of operations doesn't mention this kind of ability at all.
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I suppose Peace you could considered peace a gained ability but its not obvious. If Peace definitely isn't what kind of ability is it? If its not gained then the order of operations doesn't mention this kind of ability at all.
It is not a gained ability, and it does not factor into the Order of Operations in any way. It was already played, it is already active, so it is not in the Order of Operations in the same way that Artifacts and Fortresses are not. However, even though it is already active and working, it still cannot insert between other abilities. Therefore, the 'check' about "in battle alone" cannot actually verify the status, nor can the Toss component start triggering as a result of that check, until after the character has entered and all abilities have finished resolving.
So you will not find Peace on the Order of Operations, it is not a gained ability, but because it cannot insert it is unable to Toss a weapon that was already on the character.
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So the trigger is satisfied but can't complete until the weapon has been played!? Sounds good to me sorry about the confusion lol ;)
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So the trigger is satisfied but can't complete until the weapon has been played!?
More or less, because it cannot trigger the Tossing component until it can validate the condition, and it cannot do that while other abilities are completing.