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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Lex1122 on July 24, 2018, 01:06:40 PM
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I take a lone green prophet into battle. Let’s say Samuel. With that hidden treasures activates. Allowing me to play an enhancement. I play (not alone) n band to Paul (promo) he negates natural cards. Does he casscade negate (not alone)? Due to negating hidden treasures??
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All play abilities cannot be interrupted.
(Note: That does not mean that the card you play off of the play ability will be CBI, but the ability that allows you to play that card is CBI.)
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+1
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Is not alone casscade negated by Paul?
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Paul negates Hidden Treasures he just can't negate the play ability. So this is how cascade works REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO not alone definitely fall under that.
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Samuel negates play abilities though so you cant play of hidden treasures to begin with.
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Samuel negates play abilities though so you cant play of hidden treasures to begin with.
He was using cloud of witnesses Samuel
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Paul negates Hidden Treasures he just can't negate the play ability.
So this is how cascade works REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO not alone definitely fall under that.
Not if you choose the play ability instead of the search and discard. choosing the play makes the whole card CBI essentially, as there are no other abilities. Not Alone still works.
Samuel negates play abilities though so you cant play of hidden treasures to begin with.
That's a good point though lol, better get another prophet to do this with! ;D
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Sorry Samuel cloud
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Samuel negates play abilities though so you cant play of hidden treasures to begin with.
He was using cloud of witnesses Samuel
ok, was just pointing out because he didn't say which.
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Why would the whole ability gain cannot be interrupted? What is stopping Paul from negating all of the other abilitys on the card?
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Play abilities are Inherently CBI after the ability has happened. Paul is not trying to negate not alone he is trying to hit hidden treasures which has already played so is CBI
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Why would the whole ability gain cannot be interrupted? What is stopping Paul from negating all of the other abilitys on the card?
There are no other abilities on the card. If there were, he would negate them.
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Paul negates Hidden Treasures he just can't negate the play ability. So this is how cascade works REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO not alone definitely fall under that.
In the case of Hidden Treasures there is no "negated ability" to trace back to because the play ability is CBI.
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What's stopping you from negating the trigger the playability has already happened. I'm just going by the logic from this thread that we had a week or so ago. http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/cascading-lol/ (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/cascading-lol/)
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The trigger is not its own ability, it is part of the play ability.
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So here's another question if my opponent plays his Nebuchadnezzar goes and gets dream add's dream to battle draws 3 and plays unified language and bands in one of his other evil characters in his territory. I then negate the draw off of dream that also negates unified languages. Not the playing of unified languages just the ability on unified languages. Those abilities are all tied together are they not? This is basically the same scenario. Maybe this is not the way it's supposed to be but this is the way Cascade negate works as of now.
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If Unif. Lang. was one of the cards drawn by Dream, it is cascade negated. If it was not drawn by Dream, it is not cascade negated.
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So here's another question if my opponent plays his Nebuchadnezzar goes and gets dream add's dream to battle draws 3 and plays unified language and bands in one of his other evil characters in his territory. I then negate the draw off of dream that also negates unified languages. Not the playing of unified languages just the ability on unified languages. Those abilities are all tied together are they not? This is basically the same scenario. Maybe this is not the way it's supposed to be but this is the way Cascade negate works as of now.
What do you mean by "Tied together"?
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As far as I'm concerned we've already had this discussion. A play a enhancementis an effect it is not an ability it is part of an ability.
http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/cascading-lol/ (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/cascading-lol/)
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As far as I'm concerned we've already had this discussion.
http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/cascading-lol/ (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/cascading-lol/)
The scenario in that thread is different than this one. In that thread, being played by the play ability isn't what cascades the card. It's cascaded because it was drawn by a negated draw ability. In this thread's scenario, Not Alone just came from hand so there's nothing that would cascade it.
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Sorry Kevin I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say. I do know that Hidden Treasures is a whole ability and the play the next enhancement is an effect of the ability. You can still negate the trigger even though the playability is already taken place. The playing of the enhancement cannot be interrupted but it can still be traced back to a loan green hero and that was negated so then not alone should be negated as well or we need to change the Cascade negate rules.
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But if play abilities are CBI and Hidden Treasures is active when Samuel (RoA) enters battle he cannot negate that play ability since his negate activates after Hidden Treasures has been activated during earlier phase. Or does the HT play ability activates when hero enters battle and hence is prevented by Samuel (RoA)?
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But if play abilities are CBI and Hidden Treasures is active when Samuel (RoA) enters battle he cannot negate that play ability since his negate activates after Hidden Treasures has been activated during earlier phase. Or does the HT play ability activates when hero enters battle and hence is prevented by Samuel (RoA)?
Sam (from ROA) would negate HT before it activates. but, we are talking about the CoW Samuel, who doesn't negate play abilities.
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Sorry Kevin I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say. I do know that Hidden Treasures is a whole ability and the play the next enhancement is an effect of the ability. You can still negate the trigger even though the playability is already taken place. The playing of the enhancement cannot be interrupted but it can still be traced back to a loan green hero and that was negated so then not alone should be negated as well or we need to change the Cascade negate rules.
Even if you could negate the trigger separately from the play ability (Which Guardian already told you you can't) that wouldn't cascade Not Alone. Cascade negate basically means is if you destroy the foundation of a building, the whole thing collapses. In this case, the first floor (the play ability) has external support beams (CBI) so even if you take away part of the foundation (trigger) the first floor can keep the second floor (Not Alone) from collapsing.
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Sorry Kevin I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say. I do know that Hidden Treasures is a whole ability and the play the next enhancement is an effect of the ability. You can still negate the trigger even though the playability is already taken place. The playing of the enhancement cannot be interrupted but it can still be traced back to a loan green hero and that was negated so then not alone should be negated as well or we need to change the Cascade negate rules.
Even if you could negate the trigger separately from the play ability (Which Guardian already told you you can't) that wouldn't cascade Not Alone. Cascade negate basically means is if you destroy the foundation of a building, the whole thing collapses. In this case, the first floor (the play ability) has external support beams (CBI) so even if you take away part of the foundation (trigger) the first floor can keep the second floor (Not Alone) from collapsing.
What if I have a really big wrecking ball?
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Sorry Kevin I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say. I do know that Hidden Treasures is a whole ability and the play the next enhancement is an effect of the ability. You can still negate the trigger even though the playability is already taken place. The playing of the enhancement cannot be interrupted but it can still be traced back to a loan green hero and that was negated so then not alone should be negated as well or we need to change the Cascade negate rules.
Even if you could negate the trigger separately from the play ability (Which Guardian already told you you can't) that wouldn't cascade Not Alone. Cascade negate basically means is if you destroy the foundation of a building, the whole thing collapses. In this case, the first floor (the play ability) has external support beams (CBI) so even if you take away part of the foundation (trigger) the first floor can keep the second floor (Not Alone) from collapsing.
What if I have a really big wrecking ball?
The force of the impact takes out the second floor and the third floor (Paul) but can't harm the adamantine support beams of the first floor or the fourth floor's (Paul's abilities) iron framework (CBN).
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Sam (from ROA) would negate HT before it activates. but, we are talking about the CoW Samuel, who doesn't negate play abilities.
But HT activates already in prep whereas Sam activates in battle. Or does the play effect of HT activates not before the Hero enters battle? And in latter case: Which ability activates first then? Sams or HTs?
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Sam (from ROA) would negate HT before it activates. but, we are talking about the CoW Samuel, who doesn't negate play abilities.
But HT activates already in prep whereas Sam activates in battle. Or does the play effect of HT activates not before the Hero enters battle? And in latter case: Which ability activates first then? Sams or HTs?
While HT does activate in prep, the play ability is the only thing that is CBI and that doesn't activate until the trigger completes which is after Sam's ability resolves.
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Even if you could negate the trigger separately from the play ability (Which Guardian already told you you can't) that wouldn't cascade Not Alone. Cascade negate basically means is if you destroy the foundation of a building, the whole thing collapses. In this case, the first floor (the play ability) has external support beams (CBI) so even if you take away part of the foundation (trigger) the first floor can keep the second floor (Not Alone) from collapsing.
As for the Guardians portion where he said you cannot negate the trigger. Like I said that's not entirely true. The play the next enhancement is an effect that is part of the whole ability. The play the next enhancement affect of the ability cannot be interrupted but the rest of it can. Not alone can also be traced back to Hidden Treasures. Therefore it negates not alone.
how is the scenario that we are talking about any different than this scenario?
Jeremy. Takes hero out.
Alex. Takes the harlot out and bands to NEBI. NEBI gets Swift horses. Swift horses draws two and plays unified language and bands to NERGALSHAREZER.
Jeremy’s initiative.
He plays Overcome which he negates the harlot who began the banding chain.
What happens next?
Your answer.
I agree; I don't like that this is how cascade works but the REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO Horses, UL, and Nerg definitely fall under that.
Redemption Aggie answer.
Based on the current rules, I don't see how Nerg stays in battle, so I see Harlot, Horses, and UL in battle.
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Aggie's answer is correct if UL was drawn off Horses. If it was in hand some other way then it is not cascaded. I believe Guardian and Aggie assumed different things about the origin of UL and both gave correct answers based on their assumption.
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+1
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The play the next enhancement affect of the ability cannot be interrupted but the rest of it can. Not alone can also be traced back to Hidden Treasures. Therefore it negates not alone.
Negating the trigger does not cascade negate an ability that is cbi.
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I could be wrong but I believe Jeremy is saying if Paul negates (if your lone great prophet enters battle you may) ability on HT it then casscade negates any enhancement played due to a lone green prophet entering battle. Is he wrong? If
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Yes, he is wrong, it won't hop the CBI status of the play ability
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Yes, he is wrong, it won't hop the CBI status of the play ability
That is not entirely true here is the guardian stating that Cascade negate can hop a play the next enhancement effect.
If Unif. Lang. was one of the cards drawn by Dream, it is cascade negated. If it was not drawn by Dream, it is not cascade negated.
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That is not entirly true. The negation of unified language would happen if it was drawn off dream, not hopping the CBI of dream.
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I'm not saying that I like the way that Cascade negate works but that is the way it is being ruled right now even you agree with me.
Cascade negate should not hop any CBN or CBI ability. Those abilities happened and everything after them is a result of them. Therefore no longer tied to the original ability.
By the logic used for it to be able to hop then we should just negate the 1st card in battle every time we are being removed because it will make its way to the removing enhancement and negate 4, 5 ,6 cards along the way by hopping CBN/CBI status and that is not intuitive. Negates should stop at the first CBN/CBI ability they come to because that ability stays and everything after is a result and tied to that ability.
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That is from a post that I was arguing against it and to the best of my knowledge we never got a definitive answer on that. I have NEVER said that it should hop, always said it stops and that is how it has always been ruled in our area.
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I guess this is the best scenario that will explain how Cascade negate hops over a cannot be negated. If your opponent makes a rescue attempt and they already have search this turn and you block with the Harlot and band to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar goes and gets fire foxes Nebuchadnezzar ability is cannot be negated but if your opponent has initiative and negates the Harlot that kicks Nebuchadnezzar out of the battle and negates fire foxes. Do you agree?
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No, a CBN ability got fire foxes, fire foxes is not negated
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I'll try to explain why I think Paul can Negate hidden treasures Or any negate for that matter. We first have to put aside what we think should happen or how we been playing it from the past and just read the rules for what they're worth.
Hidden treasures has three effects that make up one ability.
REG Effects
An effect is part of an ability that acts upon a target. Targets are usually cards, abilities, or players.
REG Abilities
An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects within a special ability. The effects may be connected by a common target or set of targets, by being paired with a previous effect or by an effect needing information about the target(s) of a previous effect. An ability targets the cards its effects target.
There are three ways an ability can activate its effects: Immediate Effect, Activated Effect and Triggered Effect.
Hidden treasures first Effect is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," This is a trigger effect.
Hidden treasures second Effect is "you may play an Enhancement" This is a play effect
Hidden treasures third Effect is "or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck" This is a discard effect
REG Triggered Effect
An ability with a triggered effect has an effect that is waiting for event to occur be activated. A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen. Triggered effects may be ongoing or instant. When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.
REG Play (Play an Enhancement)
A play an Enhancement effect allows a player to play an Enhancement outside of the normal rules for initiative.
Special Conditions
● All play an Enhancement effects cannot be interrupted.
REG Discard
A discard effect moves a card from its current location to its owner’s discard pile.
So Samuel triggers the first Effect on hidden treasures because he entered battle alone. Now he gets to choose either the second effect or the third effect. If he chooses the second Effect and plays and enhancement the second effect cannot be interrupted. Now he plays not alone and bands Paul Into the battle. Paul Negates neutral cards. So he negates the first effect "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," Now by the rules of negate it states "If any effects (The second affect the playing of an Enhancement.) were carried out because of an ability (An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects) (In other words the whole card) that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated. And of course the playing of the enhancement can be traced back to the activation of hidden treasures Trigger effect.
REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
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REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
If you negate the trigger it doesn't cascade negate the play ability on hidden treasures because it is cbi. And not alone follows from the play ability, so you'll have to do a better job of explaining why you think it should be cascaded.
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There is no such thing as a play ability! It is a play effect! Did you even read my post? An ability is the whole card. If you negate the first part it cascades into not alone.
REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
REG Abilities
An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects within a special ability. The effects may be connected by a common target or set of targets, by being paired with a previous effect or by an effect needing information about the target(s) of a previous effect. An ability targets the cards its effects target.
There are three ways an ability can activate its effects: Immediate Effect, Activated Effect and Triggered Effect.
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It all comes back to a play ability is inherently CBI, cascade DOES NOT hop CBI or CBN, it never has, CBI and CBN abilities stick even if the card is removed and are as put awhile ago are the foundation that hold what happened after them up.
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REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
The effect that was carried out because of the ability that was negated is the "play effect". Then Not Alone activated because it was played not because of Hidden Treasures.
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Yes but the only reason it was played was because of Hidden Treasures and it can be traced back to Hidden Treasures.
REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
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It all comes back to a play ability is inherently CBI, cascade DOES NOT hop CBI or CBN, it never has, CBI and CBN abilities stick even if the card is removed and are as put awhile ago are the foundation that hold what happened after them up.
In a similar question a while ago, (EC A banding to EC B who then CBN bands to EC C) it was ruled cascade doesn't stop at the first CBN and keeps going past it. By that logic the only thing left in this battle would be Harlot and a negated Horses. Why is this situation different?
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Yes but the only reason it was played was because of Hidden Treasures and it can be traced back to Hidden Treasures.
REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
So If I have a 3 character banding chain and character 2 is cbn. You would say that if character 1 is negated that character 3's ability would be negated even though he was brought in cbn?
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I'm not saying that's the way it should be done but I am saying that's what the rules say. Maybe we should take a closer look at cascade negate and change it. But as of right now yes.
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You keep skipping over that to the best of my knowledge that ruling was never confirmed and all-around is wrong. It has always been ruled that the cascade stops at a CBN or CBI.
Can we please get an elder to confirm wether cascade will or won't hop CBN CBI status or does it stop right there.
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I agree can we please get this confirmed once n for all. Does casscade negate hop? In the earlier question with the harlot banding to nebbi n getting Fire Fox. If you negate the harlot, does it cascade negate Fire Fox n it’s ability?
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One more unnatural rule is the rule that cascade negate may negate the things that were a cascade result of a CBN ability. It seems more natural to understand that everything behind CBN would stay untouched from the cascade negate. So that's one of the rules that I've found hard to understand.
I'm not sure where you heard this rule, but that is not the case. If a CBN ability is activated, it "sticks" and cannot be negated directly (by a negate card) or indirectly (cascade negated). Example: I attack with Tribal Elder and band to Abraham who searches deck for Isaac and bands to him (CBN). If you negate Tribal Elder, then Abraham leaves battle, but Isaac remains because he was banded in by a CBN ability.
I understood the cascade negate rule so that if your character A bands a CBN character B who bands a non-CBN character C who bands a non-CBN character D and then your character A gets negated:
- his band ability would be negated (I still don't know what happens to the character B)
- the CBN band ability of the character B can't be negated - therefore character C stays in battle
And here one would think the CBN ability would stop the cascade negate in negating the character C and D
But, as I understood it, the cascade negate goes behind the CBN ability and negates it's results...
Therefore:
- character C gets negated but stays in battle - therefore the banding of the character D doesn't occur
- character D gets negated and out of the battle
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This ability is a monster for me to understand...
You are correct on all counts. Character B would be kicked out of battle though his ability "sticks" which is why Character C stays in battle.
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That doesn't mean c in negated, what brought it in is CBN and that is the foundation that hold fire foxes up so it should still work.
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I'm just showing you where an elder said "You are correct on all counts" that includes "goes behind the CBN" hops as you said and still negates the other cards. Don't get me wrong I don't necessarily agree with this it's just that's the rules, I have shown you them in the REG. We can't just say that's not how it works.
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So then you are in a sense indirectly negating a CBN ability. Which is not intuitive. Every major tournament that I have attended including nats it has been ruled that it stops at CBN CBI. This is why cascade is bad for the game. A negate should only hit the exact ability you target, it would be more intuitive, these arguments wouldn't happen, rulings would be easier, and it would be easier as a whole to teach new players.
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Finally something we totally agree on!
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Ok and as for my original question is there a reason why Paul doesn’t indirectly negate not alone? Is there something different about these two scenario? Lone green prophet enters. Triggers HT. Plays not alone n bands to promo Paul that negates neutral cards. Does it go behind or hop to the not alone? Second scenario is the harlot to nebbi to Firefox. Is negating the harlot also indirectly negating Fire Fox?
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In my experience this season at 2 state and 1 regional it has been ruled every time as no, not alone and fire foxes still work. That is why id like an elder to give a ruling which I do believe guardian did earlier saying not alone stays
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Stays n battle and negated but stays in battle are two very different things.
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Paul negates Hidden Treasures he just can't negate the play ability. So this is how cascade works REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO not alone definitely fall under that.
In the case of Hidden Treasures there is no "negated ability" to trace back to because the play ability is CBI.
If Unif. Lang. was one of the cards drawn by Dream, it is cascade negated. If it was not drawn by Dream, it is not cascade negated.
This quote supports my ruling that it doesnt hop, only if unified languages was drawn off dream because if they negate dream then you shouldn't have drawn it is when he is saying here.
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I'm not an elder, but I've been in numerous conversations about Cascade Negation with some of them recently, and I can confirm this is how Cascade Negate works in English terms:
When an ability is negated, all other abilities that activated, directly AND indirectly, due to the negated ability are negated.
So for Harlot - Nebby - Fire Foxes, and Harlot is targeted by a Negate: Fire Foxes stays in battle, because a CBN ability put it there. However, Fire Foxes entered battle because Harlot's band ability started a chain of abilities that brought Fire Foxes into battle, so Fire Foxes is negated.
Reach of Desperation, Draw 3, play an enhancement you drew, Reach is negated: The Played enhancement stays in battle, because Play abilities are CBI. However, Reach's Draw 3 was responsible for putting that enhancement in your hand, so the enhancement is negated.
Abishai - Joshua - Captain is blocked by Twelve-Fingered Giant: Abishai is negated, so Joshua is kicked out of battle. Joshua is CBN, so Captain stays in battle. However, since Abishai's ability started a chain of abilities that brought Captain into battle, Captain is Cascade Negated.
And Samuel attacks, uses Hidden Treasures to play Not Alone, bands in Paul: Hidden Treasures is negated, except for the Play ability. Not Alone stays in battle. Since Hidden Treasures didn't put Not Alone in your hand, negating Hidden Treasures isn't going to Cascade Negate Not Alone. Not Alone was in your hand, Hidden Treasures' Play ability activated, and it put Not Alone from your hand into battle. Negating Hidden Treasures doesn't Cascade anything here.
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^^Elder stamp of approval^^
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Josh this has not been my understanding.
In the first scenario there is nothing directly or indirectly negating FF because Nebby brought it in CBN. The completion of Neb's CBN add to battle is the completion of Fire Foxes ability. There is nothing directly or indirectly touching Fire Foxes.
^^Elder stamp of approval^^
Seriously???
Cascade keeps evolving. I don't see this having been the standard at any nats I've been too. Cascade is absolutely ridiculous.
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Fire Foxes completion is the completion of Harlot's ability.
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Cascade keeps evolving. I don't see this having been the standard at any nats I've been too. Cascade is absolutely ridiculous.
This is the way I've always seen it ruled by Elders on the boards so at least it's consistent. I completely agree cascade is ridiculous though. It's not necessary, it's not beneficial in any way, and it needs to die.
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Cascade is absolutely ridiculous.
It's not necessary, it's not beneficial in any way, and it needs to die.
Patience. Just because I can articulate how Cascade works doesn't mean I like it or agree with it ;)
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Then why is the enhancment played after dream not negated if dream is negated? You can cascade hop over a CBN ability but not an inherently CBI one? How does that make any sense or be intuitive for teaching and ruling?
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+1
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Then why is the enhancment played after dream not negated if dream is negated? You can cascade hop over a CBN ability but not an inherently CBI one? How does that make any sense or be intuitive for teaching and ruling?
The enhancement played by Dream is Cascade Negated if it was one of the 3 cards drawn by Dream. If it was in your hand before Dream was played, it can't be Cascade Negated.
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Then why is the enhancment played after dream not negated if dream is negated? You can cascade hop over a CBN ability but not an inherently CBI one? How does that make any sense or be intuitive for teaching and ruling?
The enhancement played by Dream is Cascade Negated if it was one of the 3 cards drawn by Dream. If it was in your hand before Dream was played, it can't be Cascade Negated.
Yeah because we know everyone is monitoring what 3 they drew and are going to be honest about that. (Even if they wanted to be honest the odds of knowing for sure all the time are low)
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I'm not an elder, but I've been in numerous conversations about Cascade Negation with some of them recently, and I can confirm this is how Cascade Negate works in English terms:
When an ability is negated, all other abilities that activated, directly AND indirectly, due to the negated ability are negated.
And Samuel attacks, uses Hidden Treasures to play Not Alone, bands in Paul: Hidden Treasures is negated, except for the Play ability. Not Alone stays in battle. Since Hidden Treasures didn't put Not Alone in your hand, negating Hidden Treasures isn't going to Cascade Negate Not Alone. Not Alone was in your hand, Hidden Treasures' Play ability activated, and it put Not Alone from your hand into battle. Negating Hidden Treasures doesn't Cascade anything here.
I don't see how you don't understand that the play effect is part of the ability and if the play effect cannot be interrupted but the first part of the ability is interrupted and prevented after hidden treasure targets the hand for playing the card it can still be traced back to Hidden Treasures Cascade negated indirectly how you put it.
REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
REG Effects
An effect is part of an ability that acts upon a target. Targets are usually cards, abilities, or players.
REG Abilities
An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects within a special ability. The effects may be connected by a common target or set of targets, by being paired with a previous effect or by an effect needing information about the target(s) of a previous effect. An ability targets the cards its effects target.
There are three ways an ability can activate its effects: Immediate Effect, Activated Effect and Triggered Effect.
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I don't see how you don't understand that the play effect is part of the ability and if the play effect cannot be interrupted but the first part of the ability is interrupted and prevented after hidden treasure targets the hand for playing the card it can still be traced back to Hidden Treasures Cascade negated indirectly how you put it.
The problem with your logic is that "Once per turn, if your lone Green brigade prophet begins a battle" is not an ability or an effect. What does it do? Nothing. It can't exist by itself, because it literally does nothing by itself. It merely clarifies when the Play ability works. You can't negate something that doesn't do anything. It's identity is tied to the corresponding Play ability, and once the Play ability happens, the whole thing is CBI.
Otherwise, cards like Samuel's Edict could be negated, even if used by a lone judge w/ no special ability, because you could negate the phrase "If used by a Judge with no special ability". Or Bravery of David, by negating the phrase "If used by a lone Warrior".
Basically, if an ongoing trigger is tied to a CBI or CBN ability, and the trigger is tripped and the CBI/CBN ability happens, you can't negate the fact that the trigger was tripped and activated a CBI or CBN ability.
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I don't see how you don't understand that the play effect is part of the ability and if the play effect cannot be interrupted but the first part of the ability is interrupted and prevented after hidden treasure targets the hand for playing the card it can still be traced back to Hidden Treasures Cascade negated indirectly how you put it.
The problem with your logic is that "Once per turn, if your lone Green brigade prophet begins a battle" is not an ability or an effect. What does it do? Nothing. It can't exist by itself, because it literally does nothing by itself. It merely clarifies when the Play ability works. You can't negate something that doesn't do anything. It's identity is tied to the corresponding Play ability, and once the Play ability happens, the whole thing is CBI.
It is an effect! It is a trigger effect. I'm just saying it can't be one way for one card and a total opposite way for another card just cuz that's the way we want it to work. See if you chose to do the third effect instead of the second one someone could play the three woes and negate that ability.
Hidden treasures has three effects that make up one ability.
Hidden treasures first Effect is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," This is a trigger effect.
Hidden treasures second Effect is "you may play an Enhancement" This is a play effect
Hidden treasures third Effect is "or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck" This is a discard effect
REG Triggered Effect
An ability with a triggered effect has an effect that is waiting for event to occur be activated. A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen. Triggered effects may be ongoing or instant. When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.
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Yeah because we know everyone is monitoring what 3 they drew and are going to be honest about that. (Even if they wanted to be honest the odds of knowing for sure all the time are low)
I'm just quoting the rules as they are currently written. I absolutely agree with you that a negatable D3 is a massive problem, regardless of Cascade Negate. Both players are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the game state; how can I maintain the integrity of the game state if my opponent draws 3 and then I negate the D3? How can I prove that the 3 cards he put back on top of the deck are the 3 he drew? I can't.
Same thing if they play Unified Language off of Dream; if my opponent says "UL was in my hand, I didn't draw it off of Dream", how can I prove that? I can't. I'm Restricted (see what I did there? ;) ) from carrying out my responsibility to maintain the integrity of the game state.
And you and I both know how hard it is to remember which cards you drew with which abilities in the middle of an extended battle. At OH States, when you negated my Messenger of Satan after he had banded to Nergalsharezar w/ Horses and a bunch of other abilities had activated, I had no idea which 2 cards I drew via MoS vs. which 2 I drew via Horses. No idea. And you said "Just do the best you can", because you knew you'd be in the same boat if our roles were switched.
Negatable Draw abilities are actually a separate (arguably bigger) problem than Cascade Negate. Even if Cascade Negate goes away, it won't solve the problem that is negatable Draw abilities.
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Then why is the enhancment played after dream not negated if dream is negated? You can cascade hop over a CBN ability but not an inherently CBI one? How does that make any sense or be intuitive for teaching and ruling?
The enhancement played by Dream is Cascade Negated if it was one of the 3 cards drawn by Dream. If it was in your hand before Dream was played, it can't be Cascade Negated.
Yes I get that, because the draw is negateable and you cant play something you dont have, nebs entire ability is CBN, therefore the card he gets should work, even if you didn't add it to battle you would still have it, if you got bells banquet with neb and didn't add it, then negated harlot that still leaves you with dream in hand because what put it there is CBN. When you compare the logic used for playing dream to the logic for neb to fire foxes how you are saying it's ruled doesn't add up and completely goes against each other. Bases on your logic if I then played banquet on harlot it would have no effect.
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It is an effect! It is a trigger effect. I'm just saying it can't be one way for one card and a total opposite way for another card just cuz that's the way we want it to work. See if you chose to do the third effect instead of the second one someone could play the three woes and negate that ability.
Hidden treasures has three effects that make up one ability.
Hidden treasures first Effect is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," This is a trigger effect.
Hidden treasures second Effect is "you may play an Enhancement" This is a play effect
Hidden treasures third Effect is "or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck" This is a discard effect
REG Triggered Effect
An ability with a triggered effect has an effect that is waiting for event to occur be activated. A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen. Triggered effects may be ongoing or instant. When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.
Your quote above rests my case. Look at this sentence from the REG that you quoted:
"A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen."
So when you say this:
"Hidden treasures first Effect is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," This is a trigger effect."
...You should actually have said this:
"Hidden treasures' first part of its first ability is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle." This is a condition."
Hidden Treasures' Play ability is the "trigger effect". It's the thing you get to do when the condition is met. You can't negate conditions. They don't do anything. They are meaningless without another ability tied to them. In this case, the condition is meaningless without the Play ability, which is the actual effect.
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Bases on your logic if I then played banquet on harlot it would have no effect.
This is a really good question, for which I've made a separate thread. And yes, I'd have to say based on the current definition of Cascade Negate, Banquet wouldn't do anything, because it being in your hand can be indirectly traced back to Harlot's band ability.
And yes, that is as ridiculous as it sounds ;)
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"Hidden treasures' first part of its first ability is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle." This is a condition."
It's not a condition itself. It is a trigger effect that is waiting for an event to happen aka looking for the conditions to be met. I guess technically speaking "you may" is the optional trigger. And there's no reason why you can't negate the "you may".
REG Conditional Phrases and Ability Classes
Each phrase that is checking the game state or for events is associated with one or more types of abilities:
• “If [event]” or “when [event]” is an ongoing check for that event to happen, and indicates a triggered effect.
REG Triggered Effect
An ability with a triggered effect has an effect that is waiting for event to occur be activated. A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen. Triggered effects may be ongoing or instant. When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens. Triggered effects may be optional or mandatory.
Optional triggered effects will be designated with a “may” or similar wording,
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I was never aware that cascade hopped cbn. It's probably something that rarely came up and simeon-auto-moses must have worked for different reasons. If that's the case than I agree Not Alone is cascade negated. Triggers are abilities which can be i/p/n see tkh and archers+ end the battle scenarios. Play is cbi, however, so Not Alone would be in battle and negated just like abishai-Joshua-captain scenario where captain is in battle but his ability is cascaded negated.
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"Hidden treasures' first part of its first ability is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle." This is a condition."
It's not a condition itself. It is a trigger effect that is waiting for an event to happen aka looking for the conditions to be met. I guess technically speaking "you may" is the optional trigger. And there's no reason why you can't negate the "you may".
It is a condition. An effect has to have a target, and that has no target. The play and the discard are both triggered effects.
"Indicates" in that section is supposed to be about the effects that follow the condition, not the condition itself.
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I was never aware that cascade hopped cbn. It's probably something that rarely came up and simeon-auto-moses must have worked for different reasons. If that's the case than I agree Not Alone is cascade negated. Triggers are abilities which can be i/p/n see tkh and archers+ end the battle scenarios. Play is cbi, however, so Not Alone would be in battle and negated just like abishai-Joshua-captain scenario where captain is in battle but his ability is cascaded negated.
Simeon/AutO/Moses works because a card cannot indirectly negate itself.
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"Hidden treasures' first part of its first ability is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle." This is a condition."
It's not a condition itself. It is a trigger effect that is waiting for an event to happen aka looking for the conditions to be met. I guess technically speaking "you may" is the optional trigger. And there's no reason why you can't negate the "you may".
It is a condition. An effect has to have a target, and that has no target. The play and the discard are both triggered effects.
"Indicates" in that section is supposed to be about the effects that follow the condition, not the condition itself.
I am not seeing the distinction because all triggers have conditions. So not sure why both can't exist together.
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All triggers ARE conditions. What comes after the trigger condition is the triggered effect.
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You're right the first part is a condition but are you saying that conditions can't be negated it looks like they can because they're part of the ability.
REG Abilities
Abilities at least one ability or modifier, and may have multiple abilities or An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects within a special ability. The effects may be connected by a c ommon target or set of targets, by being paired with a previous effect or by an effect needing information about the target(s) of a previous effect. An ability targets the cards its effects target . There are three ways an ability can activate its effects: Triggered Effect. Immediate Effect, Activated Effect and An ability may have effects that activate in different ways. An ability is only instant if it only has immediate instant effects, otherwise it is ongoing. An ongoing ability is active if it is checking a condition or has a currently active ongoing effect. If an instant ability is prevented from activating, it can never activate, even if the prevent is later negated. If an ongoing ability is prevented, and the prevent is later negated, the ongoing ab ility activates at that point. If an ongoing ability is negated and the negation ends before the ongoing ability, the ongoing ability will reactivate when the next phase begins.
An ability consists of one or more effects, and may have one or more conditions, options, or players to carry out some or all the effects. An option is represented by the word “may” and/or by a choice between two effects. If a player or players is mentioned in the ability, the effect is carried out by those players; otherwise the controller carries out the effect.
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So I'm starting a petition to say that we need to change conditions to be modifiers. Because as of right now they are abilities and there's no reason why they can't be negated.
Unless I'm missing something as of right now you could negate the first part of the humble and make her work all the time instead of during battle.
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You can negate conditions (or at least that's what you interrupt in the Archer/ITB/ETB scenario). BUT, I think you can only negate a condition if you negate all of the dependent effects.
Negating an ability negates all effects of that ability, unless the negate specifies a type of effect it negates, in which case it only
negates the specified effects.
"Negate draw abilities" (or "negate play abilities") only negates the draw (or play) effect on Throne, not the condition or the other effect. The REG doesn't cover the other side, where you don't (or can't) negate one of the effects (such as "except banding"), which shouldn't negate the condition of an ability where one effect is negated.
Conditions are parts of abilities or modifiers - the condition on Humble is part of the modifier.
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The way it's worded it seems like you can negate all conditions because they are abilities know where can I find that states a condition is a modifier.
REG Negate
Negating an ability negates all effects of that ability, unless the negate specifies a type of effect it negates, in which case it only negates the specified effects.
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.
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If you can negate the humbles “during battle” condition then you can have you cards CBP the entire time?
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REG > Abilities
An ability consists of one or more effects, and may have one or more conditions, options, or players to carry out some or all the effects. An option is represented by the word “may” and/or by a choice between two effects. If a player or players is mentioned in the ability, the effect is carried out by those players; otherwise the controller carries out the effect.
REG > Modifiers
A modifier may have one or more conditions included as part of the modifier.
The section on conditions focuses on abilities because they're the majority of the conditions. Not mentioning modifiers at all was an oversight.
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Thanks for pointing that out! That makes sense.
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I was never aware that cascade hopped cbn. It's probably something that rarely came up and simeon-auto-moses must have worked for different reasons. If that's the case than I agree Not Alone is cascade negated. Triggers are abilities which can be i/p/n see tkh and archers+ end the battle scenarios. Play is cbi, however, so Not Alone would be in battle and negated just like abishai-Joshua-captain scenario where captain is in battle but his ability is cascaded negated.
Simeon/AutO/Moses works because a card cannot indirectly negate itself.
I think what The Hobbit is getting at is, Moses could be Cascade Negated if anything would Negate Simeon during battle.
So if the opponent blocks with 12FG, Goliath, etc., it would no longer be a FBTN battle (regardless of whether Moses was still in battle or not). Since Simeon was negated, Moses would be Cascaded.