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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: christiangamer25 on September 27, 2010, 04:44:25 AM

Title: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: christiangamer25 on September 27, 2010, 04:44:25 AM
not sure if this will allow a capture or not since the return is to hand not territory.

Outburst of Anger (Ap)

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero is returned to owner's hand. A new Hero must be placed in battle or rescue attempt fails. • Play As: Return any Hero to owner's hand. If this ability causes a Hero to leave battle, your opponent may place a new Hero in battle. • Identifiers: NT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Galatians 5:20-21 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Rare)

herod agriipa 2 texp

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: None • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate protect abilities on Fortresses. If a Hero withdraws from battle, you may capture it. May band to a Sadducee. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, King (Judah) • Verse: Acts 25:23 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs

need a solid answer please
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Master_Chi on September 27, 2010, 09:20:10 AM
Since Herod Agrippa II says "If Hero withdraws, you may capture it", and the Hero is being returned instead of withdrawing, you would not be able to capture your opponent's Hero.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Professoralstad on September 27, 2010, 11:18:55 AM
i agree.

a withdraw is a return ability. a return is not a withdraw ability.

Withdraw and Return to anywhere from battle are synonyms.

From the REG:
Quote
“Withdraw”, “retreat”, “lose their way” “return”, “refuses to block”, and “flee from battle” are the same.

So Outburst of Anger + HAII would result in a capture.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Master_Chi on September 27, 2010, 11:24:44 AM
Withdraw and Return to anywhere from battle are synonyms.

From the REG:
Quote
“Withdraw”, “retreat”, “lose their way” “return”, “refuses to block”, and “flee from battle” are the same.

So Outburst of Anger + HAII would result in a capture.

Hm. I'm glad you corrected me, I might have to think about putting HA2 in my deck since my Brown defense has a lot of Returns...  8)
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Professoralstad on September 27, 2010, 12:14:49 PM
But HAII is gold...
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Professoralstad on September 27, 2010, 01:58:12 PM
But HAII is gold...

And so is Herod's Treachery... ;)

Does anyone actually use Herod's Treachery for the "play any enhancement" ability? Also, most of the useful withdraw cards I've seen are Gold (Outburst of Anger, Lies, Temptation, etc.). I would just use those.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: browarod on September 27, 2010, 02:40:00 PM
i agree.

a withdraw is a return ability. a return is not a withdraw ability.

Withdraw and Return to anywhere from battle are synonyms.

From the REG:
Quote
“Withdraw”, “retreat”, “lose their way” “return”, “refuses to block”, and “flee from battle” are the same.

So Outburst of Anger + HAII would result in a capture.
Even though the hero is withdrawing out of play?
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Minister Polarius on September 27, 2010, 02:44:47 PM
I frequently use that part of the ability to put horses on my Herods.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Professoralstad on September 27, 2010, 04:31:41 PM
Even though the hero is withdrawing out of play?

Yes.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: browarod on September 27, 2010, 05:16:17 PM
Even though the hero is withdrawing out of play?

Yes.
So DoN can negate UW after its use now?
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on September 27, 2010, 05:27:17 PM
No.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: browarod on September 27, 2010, 05:29:10 PM
No.
So why can Agrippa target an out of play card and DoN can't?
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Master KChief on September 27, 2010, 05:31:21 PM
im curious to know as well. is hg2 an instead?
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on September 27, 2010, 05:38:29 PM
DoN specifies an active artifact. Unholy Writ is not active so DoN can't target it.

I was under the impression that "If hero withdraws" was the same as "If hero is withdrawing". Probably wrong though.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: browarod on September 27, 2010, 05:53:32 PM
DoN specifies an active artifact. Unholy Writ is not active so DoN can't target it.
Using that same reasoning, HA2 defaults to in play which the hero in your hand is not.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Professoralstad on September 28, 2010, 12:26:15 AM
im curious to know as well. is hg2 an instead?

That's actually a good point. I assumed it was an instead, in which case I think it would work, but reading HAII again, it is not an instead, it is a separate ability. So I would actually have to rule that withdrawing to hand doesn't allow the capture. Good catch.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Master_Chi on September 28, 2010, 06:19:14 PM
im curious to know as well. is hg2 an instead?

That's actually a good point. I assumed it was an instead, in which case I think it would work, but reading HAII again, it is not an instead, it is a separate ability. So I would actually have to rule that withdrawing to hand doesn't allow the capture. Good catch.

So I actually was right, initially.... I wasn't sure why you were saying it wouldn't work, but I wasn't going to argue with you.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: DDiceRC on September 28, 2010, 10:13:36 PM
It depends on the timing of the capture. If the capture takes place after the hero has full withdrawn, HA2 would not be able to capture a hero that was OOP in a hand. If the capture takes place while the hero is withdrawing, then he would. I lean toward the first timing, since the standard principle of Redemption is that, unless interrupted, one ability must complete before the next ability takes place. SO the hero makes it all the way back to the hand before HA2 triggers against the "withdrawing" card.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Professoralstad on September 28, 2010, 10:17:55 PM
It depends on the timing of the capture. If the capture takes place after the hero has full withdrawn, HA2 would not be able to capture a hero that was OOP in a hand. If the capture takes place while the hero is withdrawing, then he would. I lean toward the first timing, since the standard principle of Redemption is that, unless interrupted, one ability must complete before the next ability takes place. SO the hero makes it all the way back to the hand before HA2 triggers against the "withdrawing" card.

I agree. However, if HAII did say instead, then I would say that it would be the second timing, which is why I initially ruled the way I did. But he does not. So Outburst of Anger is still mostly useless...sad day.
Title: Re: outburst of anger + herod agrippa 2
Post by: Master_Chi on September 29, 2010, 09:05:25 AM
It depends on the timing of the capture. If the capture takes place after the hero has full withdrawn, HA2 would not be able to capture a hero that was OOP in a hand. If the capture takes place while the hero is withdrawing, then he would. I lean toward the first timing, since the standard principle of Redemption is that, unless interrupted, one ability must complete before the next ability takes place. SO the hero makes it all the way back to the hand before HA2 triggers against the "withdrawing" card.

That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't quite sure...
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