Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TXJonathan on November 23, 2008, 02:47:05 PM
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I strongly believe that the New Jerusalem dominant should only be allowed in Type II. Whoever thinks that it should post yes and those against post no.
Yes
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I agree that it should only be legal in T2.
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No, Because then why don't we ban AoCP in T2 Or deck discard in T1?
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No, Because then why don't we ban AoCP in T2 Or deck discard in T1?
Cuz neither of them instantly end a game with no counter.
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No, NJ should be legal in T1 and T2
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Why do you think it should be banned?
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Why do you think it should be banned?
My question also
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I've been a proponent of banning NJ in T1 for years now.
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Why do you think it should be banned?
Aotl (1 ls) Sog (2) aocp(3) zeal (4) NJ(5). Without NJ you need 1 more r.a. to win.
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I vote NJ stays...
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I vote NJ stays...
Says the defenseless man ;)
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First, I think no cards should be banned or limited for any reason...it starts you down a VERY slippery slope...for reference just look above: AoCp is already getting mentioned.
Second, in past threads, we have already seen the polarized opinions of those who like certain cards (like NJ, AoCp, Uma and Thumim) and those that don't. This is just another one of those threads that hopefully Rob Anderson and other playtesters don't take too serious (other than for informational purposes to help future sets).
Third, @ RR, some of those cards you listed are rarely guaranteed lost souls anymore. AoTL and AoCp come to immediate mind with all the deck staple counters like Unknown Nation.
Finally, if you don't like the card...build counters too it. Altar of Ahaz, the crimson Dom discarder (name eludes me), Confusion and so forth.
I repeat my first point for emphasis: it is dangerous to begin to make a list of banned or "limited" cards.
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I think T1 should be to 6 Lost Souls to offset NJ, rather than banning it.
Godspeed,
Mike
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I think T1 should be to 6 Lost Souls to offset NJ, rather than banning it.
Godspeed,
Mike
I've been saying that for years also... :P
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or we could leave it the way it is :)
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First, I think no cards should be banned or limited for any reason...it starts you down a VERY slippery slope...for reference just look above: AoCp is already getting mentioned.
Second, in past threads, we have already seen the polarized opinions of those who like certain cards (like NJ, AoCp, Uma and Thumim) and those that don't. This is just another one of those threads that hopefully Rob Anderson and other playtesters don't take too serious (other than for informational purposes to help future sets).
Third, @ RR, some of those cards you listed are rarely guaranteed lost souls anymore. AoTL and AoCp come to immediate mind with all the deck staple counters like Unknown Nation.
Finally, if you don't like the card...build counters too it. Altar of Ahaz, the crimson Dom discarder (name eludes me), Confusion and so forth.
I repeat my first point for emphasis: it is dangerous to begin to make a list of banned or "limited" cards.
I know they aren't free ls but I was just showing how it makes it a game to 3 unless you hit their sog or NJ with a hand/deck d/c card. If we made t1 to 6 we'd have to make t2 to 8.
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First, I think no cards should be banned or limited for any reason...it starts you down a VERY slippery slope...for reference just look above: AoCp is already getting mentioned.
+ 1 to this It would also seem odd to ban that one card all of the sudden when no other card has been banned before.
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First, I think no cards should be banned or limited for any reason...it starts you down a VERY slippery slope...for reference just look above: AoCp is already getting mentioned.
+ 1 to this It would also seem odd to ban that one card all of the sudden when no other card has been banned before.
I agree, as much as I'd like to see NJ banned from t1, I dont want stuff banned just cuz some people say its 'too good'.
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+ 1 to RR
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I hope no card is ever banned from Redemption...except maybe Haman's Plot, since I think that card should never have been made in the first place. - I mean, eventually it'll be so rare that...well...does anyone else agree with me on this?
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I've been a proponent of banning NJ in T1 for years now.
That's what you have type NW for. I've played enough games to know that the cutesy little phrase that SoG+NJ+AotL+(insert CBN battlewinner)+(insert CBN battlewinner)=win is false; you have no idea how many times I've played Zeal on Phinehas (or any other CBN battlewinner) to win the battle only to have the only available LS buried, or be given half of the 2-liner and then have it buried, or be given a LS and have it Falling Away'd, or have Phinehas get CM'd, or have Unknown Nation used on me because I didn't have DoN to kill it, or to have my opponent use SoG+NJ to rescue a shuffler or the only two LSs available in their LoB, or... the list goes on. In most of the games I play I am forced to make at least five successful rescues just with heroes because of all of the previously mentioned ways to deny a LS to people who have already won a battle, so when my SoG+NJ comes I am usually quite relieved. Redemption is complex and layered enough to have numerous counters to even the "strongest" cards, so banning anything is just stupid and will only lead to worse things.
Just my thoughts. :)
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*applause*
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I've been a proponent of banning NJ in T1 for years now.
That's what you have type NW for. I've played enough games to know that the cutesy little phrase that SoG+NJ+AotL+(insert CBN battlewinner)+(insert CBN battlewinner)=win is false; you have no idea how many times I've played Zeal on Phinehas (or any other CBN battlewinner) to win the battle only to have the only available LS buried, or be given half of the 2-liner and then have it buried, or be given a LS and have it Falling Away'd, or have Phinehas get CM'd, or have Unknown Nation used on me because I didn't have DoN to kill it, or to have my opponent use SoG+NJ to rescue a shuffler or the only two LSs available in their LoB, or... the list goes on. In most of the games I play I am forced to make at least five successful rescues just with heroes because of all of the previously mentioned ways to deny a LS to people who have already won a battle, so when my SoG+NJ comes I am usually quite relieved. Redemption is complex and layered enough to have numerous counters to even the "strongest" cards, so banning anything is just stupid and will only lead to worse things.
Just my thoughts. :)
Excellent
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i do not support banning of any cards
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I've always wanted to ban all dominants.
But then here comes RR, saying if that were the case, Artifacts will rule the day.
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I hope no card is ever banned from Redemption...except maybe Haman's Plot.
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I hope no card is ever banned from Redemption...except maybe Haman's Plot, since I think that card should never have been made in the first place. - I mean, eventually it'll be so rare that...well...does anyone else agree with me on this?
No. There is no reason to ban Haman's Plot.
Godspeed,
Mike
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Why should HP be banned?
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HP doesn't need to be banned since it will soon become extinct. ;)
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No, it won't become extinct, it'll just become rarer and rarer.
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No, it won't become extinct, it'll just become rarer and rarer.
and rarer and rarer until Extinction.
Godspeed,
Mike
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And that all depends on how I take care of my hefty collection of them. :D
Kirk
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I've always wanted to ban all dominants.
But then here comes RR, saying if that were the case, Artifacts will rule the day.
Anyone playing my in type NW can testify to it ;).
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No, it won't become extinct, it'll just become rarer and rarer.
and rarer and rarer until Extinction.
I don't know about some of you, but I will always hold onto at least one HP. I agree that eventually there will be so few Haman's Plots that practically no one will use them anymore, but then every once in a while, someone at nationals will have a stock of them, and you know everyone'll hate that guy. I think Redemption needs to give it a little extra push to extinction.
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no
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Finally, if you don't like the card...build counters too it... the crimson Dom discarder (Desecrate the Temple)...
By all means, Desecrate my NJ if you must, but please, leave SoG in my deck. :D
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That's not EXACTLY what I meant.... :P
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for alot of reasons I don't think the should or would get rid of NJ
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It is so much fun to watch someone play their SOG on the only LS just to stop me from getting to 5. Isn't an opponent's unplayed NJ better the no NJ? ;D
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Ah, it's the simple things in life, you know? ;)
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No card banning of any kind
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I am stating the obvious when I say that I pulled a tooth from NJ by restricting it's use to only your SoG. That is as far as I want to take it. No ban forthcoming.
Cheers,
Rob
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Yay! :laugh:
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And that's the final word. :kenobi:
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Excellent
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Amen!
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I am stating the obvious when I say that I pulled a tooth from NJ by restricting it's use to only your SoG. That is as far as I want to take it. No ban forthcoming.
Cheers,
Rob
Has there been in talk or is there a chance of T1 games being increased to 6 LS rescued and T2 being increased to 8 LS rescued in order to win? Just curious and doing a little fishing. ;D
Godspeed,
Mike
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NO
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I am stating the obvious when I say that I pulled a tooth from NJ by restricting it's use to only your SoG. That is as far as I want to take it. No ban forthcoming.
Cheers,
Rob
So let it be written, so let it be done!
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sog/nj needs to be banned. it serves no purpose whatsoever other than to give a player 2 free points. why not just nix sog/nj and play the game to 3/5 points? it equates to the EXACT same thing.
if sog/nj wont be banned, then the game needs to be increased to 6/8 lost souls rescued to win.
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it equates to the EXACT same thing.
You are forgetting games where someone plays SoG without NJ (like to protect a Lost Soul from rescue), or SoG/NJ is discarded with Confusion or Desecrate the Temple (or even random hand/deck-discard), or someone loses simply because they didn't draw SoG/NJ quickly enough. Speed decks are built largely for drawing SoG and NJ quickly, and a number of other strategies involve tampering with those cards. Also, without SoG and NJ, everything will simply be thrown out of balance, because the game was practically built on them. I don't think SoG or NJ should ever be banned.
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it serves no purpose whatsoever other than to give a player 2 free points.
And?
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I think that I will for the first time express support for the idea of T1 games being played to 6 LSs, and I would also appreciate Rob's input as to whether that type of change is even in the realm of possibility, or if it could never happen.
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While we're on the topic of changing stuff in Redemption, what do you guys think about three to four of each special ability card allowed per deck for type 1? ( Same rules would apply for Doms, multi colored stuff, lost souls etc...) And if we made this change I think we should play to 6 or 7 souls to win. Think about it guys, all of the strategy with out the restrictions of type 2.
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haha 4 pentecosts 4 REach of desperation 4 Book of Hozai 4 pentecosts all in a 56 deck evilthoughts evil thought....
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SOG/NJ BANNED NO'NO'NO!
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SOG/NJ BANNED NO'NO'NO!
You are so right
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While we're on the topic of changing stuff in Redemption, what do you guys think about three to four of each special ability card allowed per deck for type 1? ( Same rules would apply for Doms, multi colored stuff, lost souls etc...) And if we made this change I think we should play to 6 or 7 souls to win. Think about it guys, all of the strategy with out the restrictions of type 2.
Isn't that kind of what T2 is for?
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While we're on the topic of changing stuff in Redemption, what do you guys think about three to four of each special ability card allowed per deck for type 1? ( Same rules would apply for Doms, multi colored stuff, lost souls etc...) And if we made this change I think we should play to 6 or 7 souls to win. Think about it guys, all of the strategy with out the restrictions of type 2.
i've been a huge supporter of this for ages, mainly because 99% of the CCG's out there do it, and they all work perfectly fine. there is tremendous strategy of knowing which cards to main 4 of, while going with lesser amounts for cards that matter but not that much. it turns a game of 'i'll just stick one of every powerful card in redemption into my 56 card deck and hope i top-deck the great ones' into a waaaaay more stategic game. i'd put the cap at 3, though. 4 copies per deck seems too much for a 50-56 card deck, which seems to be the norm nowadays.
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The simple solution is leave T1 alone and make a T3 ;D
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The simple solution is leave T1 alone and make a T3 ;D
mmhmm mmhmm. free milkshakes with every rescued lost soul! :)
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With 40 card decks.
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I am stating the obvious when I say that I pulled a tooth from NJ by restricting it's use to only your SoG. That is as far as I want to take it. No ban forthcoming.
Rob, maybe NJ could be errata'ed to read, "Play this card simultaneously with the Son of God card and rescue any additional Lost Soul in play. But, then, holder must tear this card in half."
Cheers,
Rob
Back atcha. ;)
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Rob, maybe NJ could be errata'ed to read, "Play this card simultaneously with the Son of God card and rescue any additional Lost Soul in play. But, then, holder must tear this card in half."
ummmm no unless it well be reprinted as a common
RR what if you need to protect 2 LS from rescue and you have used your burial ?
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Use cards that cannot be rescued by Dominants, or cards that protect Lost Souls from rescue.
And fwiw, there is strategic value to these cards beyond their capacity to earn free points.
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That is true. However, I still would like to hear from Rob (or if not possible, then from Bryon or Schaef) as to whether there is even a possibility that T1 games could ever be played to 6 LSs instead of 5.
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Use cards that cannot be rescued by Dominants, or cards that protect Lost Souls from rescue.
And fwiw, there is strategic value to these cards beyond their capacity to earn free points.
Hehe. I agree,
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to...get rid of lost souls so you're opponent cant rescue them?
so not only does it give you 2 points, it prevents your opponent from rescuing those same ls'. OP.
i just think its counter-productive to make cards that increases your point count by 40% of the ones needed to win a game...automatically. just by putting them in there. 40%...almost half the game won by 2 cards alone. creative deck building out the window, just stick sog/nj in there instead!
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Have it your way.
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You have never been Confusioned, have you?
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why not just nix sog/nj and play the game to 3/5 points? it equates to the EXACT same thing.
Uh, then what's the point in changing it?
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I still would like to hear from Rob (or if not possible, then from Bryon or Schaef) as to whether there is even a possibility that T1 games could ever be played to 6 LSs instead of 5.
Rob...Schaef...Beuler...
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There's a combo of 5 cards that automatically wins the game for you.
Confusion + an EC + Burial + SoG + NJ = You CANNOT lose.
Impossible to lose if you pull that off. I actually have a deck based around that(I also have HPP)...alot of fun.
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Playing T1 to 6 doesn't work because one person could of the reason posted by wk4c.
Playing T2 to 8.....and I thought the games couldn't get any longer....think of the pain in playing T2 multiplayer
Having T1 be able to use 3 or 4 of the same card....just make it 5 of each card and call it T2. :)
As for NJ those who are opposed to it talk like only there opponent ever uses it against them and they never use it. Both players have SOG, both have NJ I would assume so the defensive strategy can be played by both players. Plus there are so many ways to discard SOG and to stop its use all together with SA on LS's that to say its over powered because it gets you a point is a bit much. Its almost like saying Falling Away is to strong because it AUTOMATICALLY takes a point away. Anyone can use the card and we all know its there so its not like were going to be surprised by seeing a SoG and NJ. Build your deck to slow them down a bit.
If you don't like Dominants play BOOSTER Draft. Thats what I do along with T2 so that way Doms aren't as powerful because you either don't have them or they don't win percentage wise as much.
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There's a combo of 5 cards that automatically wins the game for you.
Confusion + an EC + Burial + SoG + NJ = You CANNOT lose.
Impossible to lose if you pull that off. I actually have a deck based around that(I also have HPP)...alot of fun.
This clearly doesn't account for many other factors.
1- your opponent gets and plays SoG/NJ before you can confusion it
2- your opponent never gives you initiative to play confusion
3- your opponent plays FBN so that confusion never works
4- your opponent creates their own lost souls with:
The Amelikite Slave
Hopper LS
Malchus
Potifer's wife
Recruiting Officer
War Officer
several other characters who send people to opponent's LOB
Many of these are commonly found in decks, making this combo only a possible win, not a definite one.
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There's a combo of 5 cards that automatically wins the game for you.
Confusion + an EC + Burial + SoG + NJ = You CANNOT lose.
Impossible to lose if you pull that off. I actually have a deck based around that(I also have HPP)...alot of fun.
This clearly doesn't account for many other factors.
1- your opponent gets and plays SoG/NJ before you can confusion it
2- your opponent never gives you initiative to play confusion
3- your opponent plays FBN so that confusion never works
4- your opponent creates their own lost souls with:
The Amelikite Slave
Hopper LS
Malchus
Potifer's wife
Recruiting Officer
War Officer
several other characters who send people to opponent's LOB
Many of these are commonly found in decks, making this combo only a possible win, not a definite one.
I said if you pull it off... Obviously if those things happen, I did not "pull it off". However, if those things don't happen, it is an instant win.
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That 1/1 king with confusion and then DoU is an amazing combo.
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I said if you pull it off... Obviously if those things happen, I did not "pull it off". However, if those things don't happen, it is an instant win.
And how often do you pull that off? Never. Someone always has a way to give you a Lost Soul, in my experience playing PG Assyrians with Confusion.
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Not to mention it doesn't actually let you win, it just stops your opponent from winning. You still have to get past his defense.
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Heres my two cents......
T1:
Play to 8
Deck limit of 63 cards
This fixs confusion
and kills sped for all of us that want freash games.
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T1:
Play to 8
Deck limit of 63 cards
This fixs confusion
and kills sped for all of us that want freash games.
No, just no
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Heres my two cents......
T1:
Play to 8
Deck limit of 63 cards
This fixs confusion
and kills sped for all of us that want freash games.
Type NW (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14185.msg218914#msg218914) is what you are looking for. Come on and join us.
Godspeed,
Mike
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sounds fun....
posted with more of my info.
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HA we speed will just add more speed!
cards I don't have in my speed deck that would go in my 63 speed deck:
pentecost
book of hozai
provisions
many more I can't think of....
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It's not your speed deck though. It's everyone's speed deck. Yay for fitting in! (or not)
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I think the rule is the rule...Thats the way they designed it!!...There are cards out there that let you search a deck and get rid of a NJ or SOG etc...You could build a DISCARD deck...There are lots of ways around it...
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There's a combo of 5 cards that automatically wins the game for you.
Confusion + an EC + Burial + SoG + NJ = You CANNOT lose.
Impossible to lose if you pull that off. I actually have a deck based around that(I also have HPP)...alot of fun.
You've never played me with my angely deck (angel at tomb is in there ;) )
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I believe we should make NJ only Type 2. It isn't fair in a game if you draw 3 souls and no def and then they pull out son of God and nJ.
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Type 3- All Lost Souls are put in play at the beginning of the game. Choose the Lost Soul that you want to go after.
Could be interesting?
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i dont believe in banning any cards. when we ban one then it becomes ok to ban others and then we end up with lots of good cards that people spend a lot of time and money getting that they cant use anymore. yes it would only be from type 1 but you have to draw the line somewhere
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my idea is to announce that evil characters can now attack the land of redemption to fall away lost souls.
ban goys instead :)
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my idea is to announce that evil characters can now attack the land of redemption to fall away lost souls.
You know, that's a really cool idea. ...
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yea it got shot down because of time constraints. Too many timed games. But i likey:)
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My thought is really to add 2 categories. The first would be a Type 3 which would be like Type NW. The other category would be teams. At nats you would have 1 day with 2 events and the other 2 days would have 3 events. Regional and state tourney hosts would be required to do the basic 6 we have now and could choose to add in the extra ones. District and local touneys hosts can choose any of the categories they want. This way we get teams added in, we get a category that is deck building but without the effectiveness of dominants.
I think T1 should remain as it is because that is how most people have learned how to play and is what is in the rules for new people learning ot play. I love booster draft at tourneys and I play T2 ALL the time. The only event I'm not sold on is Closed deck. So if we added two events or had one replace closed deck I'd be ok.
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Closed deck is necessary to help new players learn the ropes and feel like they have a chance in tournaments because everyone is on a similar deck level.
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Banning cards from the beggining of a CCG is the solution, going back and banning cards throughout the ages is counter productive. I understand what MK chief is saying though and I cant say I totally disagree.
If the lost souls rescued was increased to six for type one, the lost soul per deck ratio would also need to be increased.
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If the lost souls rescued was increased to six for type one, the lost soul per deck ratio would also need to be increased.
And games would take longer as well... :-\
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We could limit the number of dominants per deck to say 8.
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Hmm...people would still use NJ.
In my playgroup, we have banned NJ for years. I'm not sure that banning it completely from T1 is a good solution, though. If we can avoid banning anything, that's better. The best solution is to never have printed the card in the first place. :)
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Hmm...people would still use NJ.
In my playgroup, we have banned NJ for years. I'm not sure that banning it completely from T1 is a good solution, though. If we can avoid banning anything, that's better. The best solution is to never have printed the card in the first place. :)
Is our best use of time travel really to potentially improve a card game?
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Would it be in our best interest to change anything more significant than a card game? Seems like that would be an interesting discussion for another thread... ::)
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Only here can a debate about a card turn into a philosophical discussion over the effects of time travel.
Anyways back on topic for me, I like NJ. Its just another thing I can choose to try and stop with specific cards or I can choose to not focus on NJ and instead focus on stopping a persons characters more. Its all strategy and that is what makes the game fun. There is nothing better then using confusion on someones SoG while they are holding NJ in there hand.
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We could limit the number of dominants per deck to say 8.
this is a very good idea that i've been a strong advocate towards for years. its an easy solution that'll lessen the amount of dominants being played while also abiding by the no-ban policy. however, 8 is still far too many...i say 5 tops for type 1. sog/nj/aotl/cm are pretty staple, then one more slot thats geared towards your deck. don for art destruction? fa for defense? it'll make dominant selection more diverse.
and remember...88 miles per hour and the flux capacitor will kick in :)
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I disagree I think 5 is not enough because many people would consider bot DoN and FA staples for their deck and would want at least 6, I think 8 at least but I am against limiting Dominants because I don't see how "game breaking" they are. Everyone in my play group has a NJ and I don't see a lot of games decided by it alone, and I see it stopped several times by things like confusion, Altar of Ahaz etc. I guess I don't see the issue...
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Ok, so should we bann Son of God from type 2 just to be fair. They made the cards so they could be played in all the games. Type 1 or 2.
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I think banning son of god is not an option ::).
"Sorry Jesus, your not welcome in T2, sorry..." you tell him I won't ;)
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I hereby recommend this thread for lock, as it doesn't belong in this particular forum, and the original question/poll has been answered by Rob.
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Spoilsport ;), In b4 the Lock
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No banning cards!
THE END
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you have no idea how many times I've played Zeal on Phinehas (or any other CBN battlewinner) to win the battle only to have the only available LS buried, or be given half of the 2-liner and then have it buried, or be given a LS and have it Falling Away'd, or have Phinehas get CM'd, or have Unknown Nation used on me because I didn't have DoN to kill it, or to have my opponent use SoG+NJ to rescue a shuffler or the only two LSs available in their LoB, or...
All of those scenarios you mentioned used dominants...