Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Jeremystair on July 20, 2018, 08:58:42 AM
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If I make a rescue attempt with a purple King and my opponent blocks with Brown / Crimson Outsiders and goes and gets the image of the Beast can he negate the play ability off of The Throne of David?
I think that as soon as Outsiders enters battle Throne triggers and the playability can't be interrupted but the draw can be negated is this correct?
The Throne of David
Play As:
If your purple king is blocked and no Evil Character in battle is equipped with a weapon, you may draw X and play an O.T. purple Enhancement.
Outsiders
If blocking, search deck, discard pile or Reserve for an idol. You may activate that idol. Cannot be negated if opponent has more cards in hand than you.
Image of the Beast
Negate a good or neutral card in play or a set-aside area. Cannot be interrupted.
Lexicon is the fastest way to get the special abilities and play as. Thanks
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No, Throne checks for a trigger after Outsider's ability completes but by then it's negated.
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+1
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One more question about throne. If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?
If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?
REG
For cards with brigades, the rainbow represents all brigades of the card’s alignment.
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It's a similar situation, by the time the Evil Character ability is resolved, you no longer have a king in battle for throne to trigger. To answer your other question, you can play O.T. rainbow enhancements off throne.
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Wasn't the king blocked even though he was withdrawn?
so you're saying that the evil character special ability has to complete before Throne can trigger?
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Yes
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Are you sure that's right?
REG Block
The Evil Characters that blocked are those that are in battle once the block is complete, or if there are none in battle, the last one to leave battle. The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.
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Are you sure that's right?
REG Block
The Evil Characters that blocked are those that are in battle once the block is complete, or if there are none in battle, the last one to leave battle. The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.
Once the block is complete, your King is no longer in battle. I'm not saying your King didn't get blocked but for Throne's trigger he must remain in battle after the Evil Character's block is complete.
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Hey,
Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"?
The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.
The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.
So just to clarify the above is no longer true anymore then?
I'm not understanding why that works that way because he was blocked why does he have to stay in battle?
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I agree that this is confusing, but have had it ruled as Xonathan stated.
I do think the wording on the definition of Enter Battle should be clarified though. I was told that the character has not entered battle until the ability is completed (at which time in this case, the King would not be in battle) but the wording in the REG says when they move from one location to the field of battle, which sounds like it is pre-ability activation.
I would put the definition here but can’t copy it right now.
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Hey,
Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"?
The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.
The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.
So just to clarify the above is no longer true anymore then?
I'm not understanding why that works that way because he was blocked why does he have to stay in battle?
That is still true, but pulled out of context. SirNobody's example includes the King being present after the EC is finished blocking which in our case isn't the situation.
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I do think the wording on the definition of Enter Battle should be clarified though. I was told that the character has not entered battle until the ability is completed (at which time in this case, the King would not be in battle) but the wording in the REG says when they move from one location to the field of battle, which sounds like it is pre-ability activation.
The definition of enters battle is what it needs to be, or you wind up with banding chains "entering" in reverse order, since a band ability doesn't complete until the abilities on the characters it bands in are complete.
IMO, once a trigger is triggered, it goes off unless there's another condition (like the weapon on Throne), that is checked afterwards.
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So what about my first question then as soon as Outsiders gets put into battle it triggers throne and since the playability can't be interrupted you still get to play a card right?
or my second question If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?
If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?
REG
For cards with brigades, the rainbow represents all brigades of the card’s alignment.
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1. So what about my first question then as soon as Outsiders gets put into battle it triggers throne and since the playability can't be interrupted you still get to play a card right?
2. or my second question If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?
3. If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?
REG
For cards with brigades, the rainbow represents all brigades of the card’s alignment.
1. Throne never triggers because it's negated before it can trigger.
2. At the time Throne is triggered there is no purple king in battle so no trigger.
3. Rainbow is indeed a purple enhancement so yes you can play a rainbow enhancement off Throne regardless of the brigade of the Hero you are playing the enhancement on.
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I guess I need to understand when throne triggers. in my head thrown triggers as soon as the evil character is placed down and is waiting to finish when the evil characters ability has completed.
REG Triggered abilities
When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.
While the condition of a triggered effect is triggered by an event happening, the effect may not activate until there are no effects resolving. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting to activate are pending abilities.
REG Pending
Pending abilities are abilities that are waiting for the effects of other abilities to resolve. Effects are resolving when they are activating or completing. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending effect activation. Interrupted abilities that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending reactivation.
REG Block
The Evil Characters that blocked are those that are in battle once the block is complete, or if there are none in battle, the last one to leave battle. The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.
REG Ability activation order
9. Activate all pending abilities with triggered effects, following the order provide definition of triggered effect abilities.
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Throne triggers when all of its conditions are met. When your king is in battle, throne waits for the triggering effect which is a King being blocked and no weapon on an EC. A block is complete when the first EC is in battle and they've had finished their special abilities. If an Evil Character's special ability negates throne or removes the King in battle when it first enters, throne can no longer can trigger because its conditions or the triggering event hasn't been met or its ability has been interrupted/negated.
I hope that's clear and I understand the confusion. We came up with a lot of throne questions at EC Regionals lol.
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It's like hidden treasures with Rachel to Joseph. Throne checks 2 times. Once after your character enters and again after the blocker enter after all abilities have completed. If your king is no longer in battle then not all conditions are met anymore. Also the play is not CBI its inherently cbi after it a card is played because game rule. There is nothing stopping it from being negated or prevented like in the example you are giving. The negate on outsiders stops it from the 2nd check and then kicks in as a prevent before the draw and play.
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Throne triggers when all of its conditions are met. When your king is in battle, throne waits for the triggering effect which is a King being blocked and no weapon on an EC. A block is complete when the first EC is in battle and they've had finished their special abilities. If an Evil Character's special ability negates throne or removes the King in battle when it first enters, throne can no longer can trigger because its conditions or the triggering event hasn't been met or its ability has been interrupted/negated.
I hope that's clear and I understand the confusion. We came up with a lot of throne questions at EC Regionals lol.
I understand how Outsiders negates thrown now reading through the REG. But this does not make sense if the king is removed from Battle.
It sounds like as soon as the evil character is put into play the conditions are met there's a purple King in battle, he was blocked by an evil character that has no weapon. Throne is triggered and now it's just a pending ability. There's no reason for it to check a second time after the evil character swaps out the hero that is in battle with the hero that's in territory.
REG Triggered abilities
When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.
While the condition of a triggered effect is triggered by an event happening, the effect may not activate until there are no effects resolving. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting to activate are pending abilities
REG Pending
Pending abilities are abilities that are waiting for the effects of other abilities to resolve. Effects are resolving when they are activating or completing. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending effect activation
REG Block
The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.
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A character is not considered entered battle till all abilities complete. If the ability kicks out the king and brings someone else in then not all condition are met for throne anymore.
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A character is not considered entered battle till all abilities complete. If the ability kicks out the king and brings someone else in then not all condition are met for throne anymore.
REG Enters Battle
A character enters battle when they move into the Field of Battle from another location.
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A character enters battle to activate it's ability, or AUTO enters battle after it exchanges for Gideon, which makes no sense. Or the EC Ehud chooses to block enters battle before Ehud himself does.
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A character is not considered entered battle till all abilities complete. If the ability kicks out the king and brings someone else in then not all condition are met for throne anymore.
REG Enters Battle
A character enters battle when they move into the Field of Battle from another location.
Entering battle and blocking are two different things.
See it this way. Throne trigger cannot insert itself in the midst of abilities. Just like you can’t play Doms when a character’s special ability isn’t done.
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Just with this REG quote it still makes the Hero that was blocked the one that who was in battle first still should trigger throne.
REG Block
The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.
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Sorry I used the wrong term. The hero is not considered blocked till the evil abilities complete. It doent change that if i push your King out throne doesn't trigger because a king is no longer being blocked.
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Okay so here's a different way of looking at it. Unique Heroes cannot enter battle more than once per turn. If you withdraw my original hero and add a different Hero to the battle I cannot band in the original hero because he was already in battle but you're saying that he was never blocked. According to the REG which I keep quoting the hero that is considered blocked are those that were in battle when the first evil character entered battle regardless of whoever is in battle in now. So if throne is looking for the conditions of an evil character in battle, no weapon on the evil character and a purple King blocked all of those conditions have been met.
REG Block
The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.
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Another way to look is throne checks after all abilities. Never sees a king, doesn't trigger. This is how it has consistently been ruled.
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Just because something's ruled a certain way doesn't mean it was ruled according to the rules. Even if throne checks after the evil characters special ability according to this rule it sees the original hero in battle. Right?
REG Block
The Heroes that are blocked are those that were in battle when the first Evil Character entered battle.
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See it this way. Throne trigger cannot insert itself in the midst of abilities. Just like you can’t play Doms when a character’s special ability isn’t done.
Another way to look is throne checks after all abilities. Never sees a king, doesn't trigger. This is how it has consistently been ruled.
These are both false. See this thread (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/ywr-goliath/), where it is determined that ongoing abilities can be triggered mid-ability, and at that point are merely waiting for all already-active abilities to complete so they can activate their triggered ability.
I tried to find the "Triggered Ability" section in the new REG but wasn't able to. We should confirm that it is still worded the same.
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Thank you Josh! I'm glad I'm not losing my mind.
REG Triggered abilities
When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.
While the condition of a triggered effect is triggered by an event happening, the effect may not activate until there are no effects resolving. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting to activate are pending abilities
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See it this way. Throne trigger cannot insert itself in the midst of abilities. Just like you can’t play Doms when a character’s special ability isn’t done.
Another way to look is throne checks after all abilities. Never sees a king, doesn't trigger. This is how it has consistently been ruled.
These are both false. See this thread (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/ywr-goliath/), where it is determined that ongoing abilities can be triggered mid-ability, and at that point are merely waiting for all already-active abilities to complete so they can activate their triggered ability.
I tried to find the "Triggered Ability" section in the new REG but wasn't able to. We should confirm that it is still worded the same.
semantics point:
-Throne's ability cannot be inserted in the middle of another ability, but a trigger can happen in the middle of another ability (essentially becoming a suspended trigger whose ability is waiting for the next opportunity to become activate) - right?
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Triggered Effect
An ability with a triggered effect has an effect that is waiting for event to occur be activated. A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen. Triggered effects may be ongoing or instant. When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.
Triggered effects may be optional or mandatory. Optional triggered effects will be designated with a “may” or similar wording, while mandatory triggered effects simply describe the outcome without giving a choice. Mandatory triggered effects that are not negated persist at least until the end of the current phase, even if the card leaves play or set aside, unless otherwise specified on the card. If the triggering event deactivates the ability without interrupting or negating it, then the triggered effect can still be activated. If the triggering event activates the ability, then the triggered effect can still be activated. Otherwise, optional triggered effects may only be activated while the card it is on is controlled by the holder and is either in play, Land of Redemption or set-aside area.
While the condition of a triggered effect is triggered by an event happening, the effect may not activate until there are no effects resolving. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting to activate are pending abilities. If multiple triggered effects are attempting to activate at the same time, the active player activates all mandatory effects they control in the order they choose, then whether to activate all their optional effects in the order they choose. During the Battle Phase, then the defender activates all mandatory effects they control in the order they choose, then whether to activate all their optional effects in the order they choose. Then inactive players activate all mandatory effects they control in the order they choose, then whether to activate all their optional effects in the order they choose, in turn order around the table.
Pending
Pending abilities are abilities that are waiting for the effects of other abilities to resolve. Effects are resolving when they are activating or completing. Abilities with triggered effects that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending effect activation. Interrupted abilities that are waiting for other effects to resolve are pending reactivation.
REG 5.1
I see here I was wrong about pending abilities. I would ask then if the conditions for the original trigger still have to be true when the pending trigger finally fires.
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semantics point:
-Throne's ability cannot be inserted in the middle of another ability, but a trigger can happen in the middle of another ability (essentially becoming a suspended trigger whose ability is waiting for the next opportunity to become activate) - right?
Correct.
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I see here I was wrong about pending abilities. I would ask then if the conditions for the original trigger still have to be true when the pending trigger finally fires.
They do not. When the trigger is met, it's met. At that point, the ongoing ability is no longer an ongoing trigger, it's a pending triggered ability. It will wait patiently while other abilities complete, and it doesn't care if those other abilities change the game state to one that would not have originally triggered the ongoing ability.
Goliath triggering YWR is about the best example, in my opinion:
- YWR is triggered by Goliath's Withdraw ability
- YWR's "Banish this card to add your hero to battle" ability is now trying to activate and is waiting for Goliath to finish
- Goliath allows opponent to present a new hero
- Once Goliath is done and a hero is presented, YWR gets to activate
- YWR doesn't care that a hero is in battle; the ability at this point is "Banish this card to add your hero to battle"
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Here's another question then if it's a pending ability and someone discards throne dose thrones ability still gets to complete because it was triggered and now is pending?
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That one I know is a "no" because it's an optional triggered ability and thus the card must remain in play in order to resolve.
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When will an official ruling be made on how the original question takes effect? I'm just curious.
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When will an official ruling be made on how the original question takes effect? I'm just curious.
If I make a rescue attempt with a purple King and my opponent blocks with Brown / Crimson Outsiders and goes and gets the image of the Beast can he negate the play ability off of The Throne of David?
I think that as soon as Outsiders enters battle Throne triggers and the playability can't be interrupted but the draw can be negated is this correct?
No, Throne checks for a trigger after Outsider's ability completes but by then it's negated.
+1
The original question was answered in the first reply and confirmed by an elder in the 2nd. What else is needed?
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+1
Except for the second and third question seems to be answered but I don't think an elder has confirmed it.
My second question If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?
If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?
REG
For cards with brigades, the rainbow represents all brigades of the card’s alignment.
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That one I know is a "no" because it's an optional triggered ability and thus the card must remain in play in order to resolve.
When will an official ruling be made on how the original question takes effect? I'm just curious.
If I make a rescue attempt with a purple King and my opponent blocks with Brown / Crimson Outsiders and goes and gets the image of the Beast can he negate the play ability off of The Throne of David?
I think that as soon as Outsiders enters battle Throne triggers and the playability can't be interrupted but the draw can be negated is this correct?
No, Throne checks for a trigger after Outsider's ability completes but by then it's negated.
+1
The original question was answered in the first reply and confirmed by an elder in the 2nd. What else is needed?
Don't by any means think I was being disrespectful or trying to argue. It just seemed when Justin posted "That one I know is a "no" because it's an optional triggered ability and thus the card must remain in play in order to resolve." he is stating he knows that for sure but the other answers he is given aren't for sure. My apologies.
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I still stand by my original agreement with Xonathan's reply (and that's how I would rule currently), but obviously there's some different interpretations being offered and I am fine with hashing those out. 8)
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Don't by any means think I was being disrespectful or trying to argue. It just seemed when Justin posted "That one I know is a "no" because it's an optional triggered ability and thus the card must remain in play in order to resolve." he is stating he knows that for sure but the other answers he is given aren't for sure. My apologies.
I don't think you were disrespectful at all. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I just didn't know what else you felt needed to be answered from the original question. I concur that the original answer and Justin's agreement are accurate.
My second question If I put a purple King in battle and my opponent exchanges the purple King with a red warrior in my territory does throne still trigger off of the purple King that was in battle?
If the purple king isn't in battle when the EC enters then the condition of a purple king being blocked will not trigger.
If so do I get to play a purple enhancement and would a rainbow card be considered purple to satisfy Thrones ability and red in order to play on the red hero?
A good rainbow card is purple in addition to every other good brigade.
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So now that we've came to the conclusion that throne triggers when all the conditions are met and is a pending ability. I have one more question when all the conditions are met do you choose at that moment if you're going to do the ability even though you don't get too?
I would think yes because it cannot be a pending ability if you haven't chose to do the ability right?
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Not quite sure if I'm understanding the question right, but yes, you would choose to use the draw/play of Throne after the EC has blocked and it has been established that all conditions are met (Purple King, no evil weapon).
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The question is when all the conditions have been met and Throne triggers at that moment even if the evil characters ability is still resolving. Throne says May I think that you would have to choose if you're going to activate the Thrones ability which then makes it a pending ability and you would have to wait until the evil characters ability has completed before Thrones ability could be completed right?
I guess I'm asking when do you choose the May ability right away when it triggers or you choose the May ability after the evil characters abilities completed?
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Throne wont trigger till all evil abilities have completed, with how you are taking it, throne would trigger if I block with gomer and band to an evil character with a weapon.
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I guess I'm asking when do you choose the May ability right away when it triggers or you choose the May ability after the evil characters abilities completed?
After.
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I guess I'm asking when do you choose the May ability right away when it triggers or you choose the May ability after the evil characters abilities completed?
After.
+1
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I guess I'm asking when do you choose the May ability right away when it triggers or you choose the May ability after the evil characters abilities completed?
After.
It's probably a good habit to ascent to the trigger as soon as possible, even if it's in the middle of another ability going off (knowing that you actually are to do it afterward). So something like:
"I know you are resolving your ability, but I just wanted to remind you that I have a throne trigger that I will need to deal with when you are finished resolving your ability."
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I agree--as long as you keep in mind that sometimes it won't actually get to be carried out. ;)
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I agree--as long as you keep in mind that sometimes it won't actually get to be carried out. ;)
Well, Throne actually never triggers in that scenario. Because if it did, it would work, even if an evil weapon ended up in battle.
I'm pretty sure there's no way to get Throne triggered properly, and then get an evil weapon in battle by special ability before Throne gets to activate its pending ability. But if there was, Throne would still work.
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I'm pretty sure there's no way to get Throne triggered properly, and then get an evil weapon in battle by special ability before Throne gets to activate its pending ability. But if there was, Throne would still work.
I believe the bolded part above to be false. The condition is checked both at the time of the trigger and again at the time it resolves.
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I see here I was wrong about pending abilities. I would ask then if the conditions for the original trigger still have to be true when the pending trigger finally fires.
They do not. When the trigger is met, it's met. At that point, the ongoing ability is no longer an ongoing trigger, it's a pending triggered ability. It will wait patiently while other abilities complete, and it doesn't care if those other abilities change the game state to one that would not have originally triggered the ongoing ability.
Goliath triggering YWR is about the best example, in my opinion:
- YWR is triggered by Goliath's Withdraw ability
- YWR's "Banish this card to add your hero to battle" ability is now trying to activate and is waiting for Goliath to finish
- Goliath allows opponent to present a new hero
- Once Goliath is done and a hero is presented, YWR gets to activate
- YWR doesn't care that a hero is in battle; the ability at this point is "Banish this card to add your hero to battle"
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^^Also false.
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Well I read up and down the rules and I can't seem to find anywhere that states that a trigger checks twice can you point me in the right direction then?
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^^Also false.
Then the YWR/Goliath scenario needs reevaluated. Aggie was quite sure that it worked as I described, based on the definitions provided in the REG.
The condition is checked both at the time of the trigger and again at the time it resolves.
This doesn't make logical sense to me. If a trigger is tripped, it's tripped. At that point, it doesn't reset itself and say "I need to get tripped again" - it's simply trying to carry out the Pending Ability that activates when the trigger is tripped.
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The condition is checked both at the time of the trigger and again at the time it resolves.
So basically, neither blocking with Nebuchadnezzar and equipping Every Man's Sword nor blocking with Lahmi equipped with his Spear and discarding it would trigger Throne? Or would it not trigger until the "block" is completed due to all evil abilities on cards in battle completing, thus leaving no weapon in battle when it triggers in the second scenario?
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So basically, neither blocking with Nebuchadnezzar and equipping Every Man's Sword nor blocking with Lahmi equipped with his Spear and discarding it would trigger Throne? Or would it not trigger until the "block" is completed due to all evil abilities on cards in battle completing, thus leaving no weapon in battle when it triggers in the second scenario?
From what I understand after playing Throne, if the second scenario is discarding the only king in battle, then Throne will not trigger. If, after Spear is discarded, there remains a king in battle, I think (but am unsure) that Throne would check after abilities resolve, and finding no weapons in battle, it can trigger.