Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: BubbleBoy on January 17, 2010, 02:44:46 PM
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So if I block with Queen Maachah (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/queenmaachah.htm) while I have Holy of Holies (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/holyofholies.htm) in a temple and another artifact active in the artifact pile, am I able to activate Asherah Pole but still keep the ability of the other artifact?
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Cool. Holy of Holies prevents the "Previous artifact is negated" sentence from the Queen's SA. So you get to have Holy of Holies, Asherah Pole, and the artifact that Asherah Pole replaced all active for that Battle Phase.
The only problem would be if the previous artifact was something like Unknown Nation that required its own discard, since you could not target it for discard while it is face down.
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Nice combo!
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What if the other artifact was Unholy Writ? Would that mean you could capture, but then couldn't discard it because it is no longer in play?
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What if the other artifact was Unholy Writ? Would that mean you could capture, but then couldn't discard it because it is no longer in play?
Wow... nice!
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That just goes back to our other discussion about triggered artifacts that are discarded. I would still argue that triggered SAs should not "linger." However, my opinion was squashed, so I say have at it with convoluted combos.
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What if the other artifact was Unholy Writ? Would that mean you could capture, but then couldn't discard it because it is no longer in play?
Wow... nice!
And if it can't be discarded, that means I can use it as many times as I want, right?
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And if it can't be discarded, that means I can use it as many times as I want, right?
Sure, why not. You just have to keep blocking with the Queen and not lose her by other methods. You also have to keep Holy of Holies active. There are many ways to stop this, but you could at least get a few uses out of it for laughs, especially if you use her other ability and bring in King Rehoboam.
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It is my understanding that Unholy Writ will get a play as in the new REG and that it is a cost of discarding it to use its ability.
Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
*edit* my mistake it has a play as. if this is the official play as then i guess this combo would work...
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It is my understanding that Unholy Writ will get a play as in the new REG and that it is a cost of discarding it to use its ability.
The "New REG" is a hoax with its own elaborate phony website. This combo will work indefinitely.
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If you use a phantom Writ to capture, the ability to discard it after use is still active as well. I don't see why you wouldn't have to discard it, even if it is not in play. I guess I'm not sure how the default target rule applies in this case, but I have a feeling this situation will be ruled against somehow.
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this makes me think of the panic demon+ Dou combo...
How does Panic Demons trigger ability happen if he's not in play?
Panic Demon (Pale Green)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If rescue attempt fails, you may place this card on a Hero in a territory. Hero cannot enter battle while this Panic Demon remains. May band to Panic Demon. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: II Timothy 1:7 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
Death of Unrighteous
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Shuffle all Lost Souls and sites in holder's Land of Bondage into owner's draw pile. Discard all Evil Characters in battle. • Play As: Shuffle all Lost Souls, sites, and evil cards in sites in holder’s Land of Bondage into owner’s draw pile. Discard all Evil Characters in battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 7:23 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
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That's a valid point, and makes me think there would be justification for my position other than a gut feeling.
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Doesn't using DoU make it a battle challenge, and thus Panic Demon would not trigger due to it not being a rescue attempt anymore? The battle is won by the offensive player, so I don't see any way that you could use DoU and still meet the "rescue attempt fail" trigger.
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If a Rescue Attempt becomes a battle challenge, then it is a failed rescue. Also, even after DoU, it could switch back and forth between RA and BC. For example:
You attack. I block PD and play DoU. All my LS's are shuffled, it is now a BC. You play Harvest Time, it is now an RA. I use Unknown Nation to search for a new blocker, and play Failed Objective. It is now a BC. If the battle was at any point an RA, and the battle phase ends without the hero rescuing a soul, then it is a failed RA.
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If a Rescue Attempt becomes a battle challenge, then it is a failed rescue. Also, even after DoU, it could switch back and forth between RA and BC. For example:
You attack. I block PD and play DoU. All my LS's are shuffled, it is now a BC. You play Harvest Time, it is now an RA. I use Unknown Nation to search for a new blocker, and play Failed Objective. It is now a BC. If the battle was at any point an RA, and the battle phase ends without the hero rescuing a soul, then it is a failed RA.
Can you point me to where it says this in the rules? It's not that I don't trust you, I just want to know for future reference :P
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No problem:
If Hero loses battle or loses access to opponent’s Lost Souls, then the rescue fails.
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And if it can't be discarded, that means I can use it as many times as I want, right?
Sure, why not. You just have to keep blocking with the Queen and not lose her by other methods. You also have to keep Holy of Holies active. There are many ways to stop this, but you could at least get a few uses out of it for laughs, especially if you use her other ability and bring in King Rehoboam.
I meant use it many times at once, to capture more than one hero in the same battle. However, I did overlook the possibility that Unholy Writ could discard itself underground.
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but how can you discard something that isnt there?
if anything i dont think PanicDemon+DoU would work b/c PD isnt there to be placed...
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The difference is, UW targets itself for Discard, which it can't do if it's no longer in play. Panic Demon only targets a Hero to be placed on, which can work regardless of where PD is.
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Panic Demon says 'this card'- is that not a target? it sounds like its targeting the card and yet how can it target the card to be placed on a hero, if it is not in play?
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Does every "Discard" card target itself so that it can be used to Discard things? Does every "Withdraw" card target itself so that it can be used to withdraw things? No. So why would you say that "place" cards target themselves so that they can be used to place things?
In other words, "Place" cards don't target themselves to be placed, they target whatever something is to be placed on.
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Hey,
The new REG says: "Place abilities target the cards that are to be placed"
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Is there a default target on it that invalidates the PD+DoU combo?
Regardless, UW still targets two things: a character for Capture and itself for Discard. Until it gets an Eratta to become cost/benefit, this combo works.
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infinite writs? sign me up.
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Multi player abuse? Hecks yeah.
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I have a question. Even if Unholy Writ is active and in play, what is stopping you from using it multiple times in the same battle? Isn't it true that the abilities of discarded artifacts remain active through the phase? Unholy Writ doesn't seem to indicate that you can only use it once per turn or anything, does it?
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this has been asked before, and is a valid argument, however if i remember correctly, no one could supply an adequate answer to that other than 'it just doesnt work that way'.
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I think UW needs the eratta that has been avoided for so long.
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i believe we suggested that as well, but all we got was something to the effect of 'it doesnt need errata, we have all played writ the same way for the past X years, why is this so hard to grasp, yata yata'.
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Hey,
I have a question. Even if Unholy Writ is active and in play, what is stopping you from using it multiple times in the same battle? Isn't it true that the abilities of discarded artifacts remain active through the phase? Unholy Writ doesn't seem to indicate that you can only use it once per turn or anything, does it?
You can use an ability one time per activation of the card. It works the same way as Net. You use the enhancement, then you get to capture one hero. If you want to capture a second hero with Net you'd have to activate it a second time (with Pride of Simon or the like). Unholy Writ is basically the same, you just get to choose when you capture rather than having to capture it when you play it.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
I have a question. Even if Unholy Writ is active and in play, what is stopping you from using it multiple times in the same battle? Isn't it true that the abilities of discarded artifacts remain active through the phase? Unholy Writ doesn't seem to indicate that you can only use it once per turn or anything, does it?
You can use an ability one time per activation of the card.
So if I have The Silver Trumpets active, I can only use its SA once to band in a single hero or run away?
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I guess so...
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Hey,
I have a question. Even if Unholy Writ is active and in play, what is stopping you from using it multiple times in the same battle? Isn't it true that the abilities of discarded artifacts remain active through the phase? Unholy Writ doesn't seem to indicate that you can only use it once per turn or anything, does it?
You can use an ability one time per activation of the card.
So if I have The Silver Trumpets active, I can only use its SA once to band in a single hero or run away?
I think you can use it twice. You are still using the ability once per activation, but you can just activate it twice.
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You can use it once per turn I'd say, with a limit of two turns.
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Hey,
You can use it once per turn I'd say, with a limit of two turns.
Correct.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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You can use it once per turn I'd say, with a limit of two turns.
Correct.
Wow. Another ruling that makes a major change to how a card has been played in the past.
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There have been some incorrect rules interpretations on this thread so I'd like to clear them up. I will not be considering any "what if" scenarios based on possible "erratas". I also will not be considering how a certain card has been played in the past. I'm only considering the current ruleset.
First, Pol is correct regarding the PD+DoU example.
Second,
Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2
Based on the rules for artifact activation (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/artifactactivation.htm), UW's ability remains active until artifact activation of the next turn or the end of the phase wherein UW is taken out of play. "A human hero in battle" is an ongoing trigger. Each time the trigger is met a human hero can be taken prisoner. But since the trigger is ongoing, there are several things to keep in mind. As long as there is a hero in battle the trigger stays on. Once there is no longer a hero in battle the trigger turns off. If the ability is still active at that point and another hero enters battle, the trigger is turned back on. The "Discard Artifact after use" is a triggered, instant ability. If UW is in play when the trigger is met then UW is discarded, BUT the first ongoing triggered ability stays active until the end of the phase.
Some of the examples mentioned are correct and some are incorrect. If two human heroes are banded in together, UW cannot capture both because after capturing one hero the ongoing trigger does not turn off. Any scenario that would turn the trigger off and then back on while the ongoing triggered ability is active would result in UW capturing more than one hero. If UW is out of play, the ability stays active until the end of the battle phase.
So one example that would work is if you banded a non-human hero and human hero into battle, UW captures the human hero, UW is then discarded if in play, the non-human plays an enhancement or uses some other ability to band in another human hero, UW can capture the second human hero. There are several other scenarios that would work, too.
Third,
The Silver Trumpets
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory into battle or interrupt the battle and return your Heroes in battle to hand. May be used twice. • Identifiers: OT, Tabernacle Item, Temple Item • Verse: Numbers 10:2
"When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt," is an ongoing, triggered ability. When does it trigger? Each time an initiative check is performed. Therefore, TST could be used twice during the same battle phase. "May be used twice" is a triggered, instant ability. Because the rules for artifact activation (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/artifactactivation.htm) explicity state that limited use artifacts must be discarded after being "used up", it doesn't matter if the artifact is in play or out of play, the artifact gets discarded when the trigger is met.
So bottom line, UW could be used more than once and TST could be used twice in the same battle phase.
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NICE! And Unholy Writ as well?
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So bottom line, UW could be used more than once and TST could be used twice in the same battle phase.
That's nice STAMP. Unfortunately, it directly contradicts what SirNobody posted earlier, so it's not as big a help as one would like.
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So bottom line, UW could be used more than once and TST could be used twice in the same battle phase.
That's nice STAMP. Unfortunately, it directly contradicts what SirNobody posted earlier, so it's not as big a help as one would like.
Would it be better if I just took out the "bottom line" statement, since the PTB might see that and completely ignore the logical treatise before it and simply say, "@#$%! We need an errata!" ;)
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Hey,
Stamp, think of triggered abilities kinda like land mines. Someone goes out into a field and puts the land mine down (activates the card with the triggered ability). It sits there and waits until someone steps on it (the condition is satisfied) and then it blows. Once it blows, it's used up. If someone else walks up to it and steps on it, it's not going to blow again. In order for the land mine to be used a second time someone has to go out into the field and repair it (activate the card a second time) before it can be used again.
Triggered artifacts work the same way, they can only "blow" once per activation.
As far as Panic Demon and Death of Unrighteous, I haven't commented on that one because I need to talk to Mike and Bryon about it first.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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can we put the landmine analogy in the new REG? the reg needs moar cool things, like landmines. :D
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Would it be better if I just took out the "bottom line" statement, since the PTB might see that and completely ignore the logical treatise before it and simply say, "@#$%! We need an errata!" ;)
I believe increasing the amount of colorful invective and gross over-generalizations in your post would tend to make your arguments stand out more. ;)
For example,
Triggered artifacts work the same way, they can only "blow" once per activation.
I completely disagree with this. Some triggered artifacts "blow" all of the time.
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Triggered artifacts work the same way, they can only "blow" once per activation.
I completely disagree with this. Some triggered artifacts "blow" all of the time.
...as do most of Limited and Angel Wars. ::)
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Now you're getting the hang of it.
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Hey,
Stamp, think of triggered abilities kinda like land mines. Someone goes out into a field and puts the land mine down (activates the card with the triggered ability). It sits there and waits until someone steps on it (the condition is satisfied) and then it blows. Once it blows, it's used up. If someone else walks up to it and steps on it, it's not going to blow again. In order for the land mine to be used a second time someone has to go out into the field and repair it (activate the card a second time) before it can be used again.
Triggered artifacts work the same way, they can only "blow" once per activation.
As far as Panic Demon and Death of Unrighteous, I haven't commented on that one because I need to talk to Mike and Bryon about it first.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
I completely understand the attempt to try and differentiate triggered abilities on different types of cards, specifically artifacts and fortresses. But I can see through it as just a way to make a headache go away. It doesn't create consistency and only creates confusion. Artifacts and fortresses are both activated for a period of time, one until next turn or end of phase, the other until end of game or end of phase. Why does triggered have to mean "land mine" for one and "AK-47" for the other, especially to compensate for about 1% of the card base? I say keep things consistent: triggered abilities mean the same thing regardless of card type. The game is complex enough already.
And, by all means, hand out some errata if you really feel the need to.
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i agree with stamp.
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Hey,
Stamp, think of triggered abilities kinda like land mines. Someone goes out into a field and puts the land mine down (activates the card with the triggered ability). It sits there and waits until someone steps on it (the condition is satisfied) and then it blows. Once it blows, it's used up. If someone else walks up to it and steps on it, it's not going to blow again. In order for the land mine to be used a second time someone has to go out into the field and repair it (activate the card a second time) before it can be used again.
Triggered artifacts work the same way, they can only "blow" once per activation.
As far as Panic Demon and Death of Unrighteous, I haven't commented on that one because I need to talk to Mike and Bryon about it first.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Currently, there are no "land mines" in the REG. Are we going by the rules or silly analogies to determine how cards are played?
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Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact Brigade: None Ability: None Class: None Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use. Identifiers: None Verse: Acts 9:2
"A human hero in battle" is an ongoing trigger.
There is a lot of confusion about this card, mainly due to the fact that it was written back before the idea of ongoing triggers was ever conceived in Redemption.
1: the "play as" is not correct. It should say "in battle," not "during battle."
2: "a human hero in battle" is not an ongoing trigger as the card is worded, nor as the play as is currently written. "a human hero in battle" is the TARGET of the capture ability.
3: If we go with the current "play as" then the ongoing trigger is "when you choose." This means you could keep trying to do it every few seconds just for kicks, until there was a capturable human hero in battle and it actually worked. And if we keep the current play as, then we would not even need to target a hero in battle, which is really messed up.
To work as intended, it needs a better "play as/ errata." It needs an "if" to show when the manually triggered ability is allowed to be accessed:
"If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero."
This way it works just like Go into Captivity, Madness, Unknown Nation, etc. "If a human hero is in battle" tells you when you can use it, and "you may discard this card to capture the hero" keeps y'all from using brutal combos that make the young'ns (and old'ns) cry.
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And, by all means, hand out some errata if you really feel the need to.
Thank you for clearing up UW, Bryon. :)
The Silver Trumpets
Type: Artifact Brigade: None Ability: None Class: None Special Ability: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory into battle or interrupt the battle and return your Heroes in battle to hand. May be used twice. Identifiers: OT, Tabernacle Item, Temple Item Verse: Numbers 10:2
"When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt," is an ongoing, triggered ability. When does it trigger? Each time an initiative check is performed. Therefore, TST could be used twice during the same battle phase. "May be used twice" is a triggered, instant ability. Because the rules for artifact activation (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/artifactactivation.htm) explicity state that limited use artifacts must be discarded after being "used up", it doesn't matter if the artifact is in play or out of play, the artifact gets discarded when the trigger is met.
What are your thoughts on The Silver Trumpets?
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"If a human hero is in battle, you may discard this card to capture that hero."
This way it works just like Go into Captivity, Madness, Unknown Nation, etc. "If a human hero is in battle" tells you when you can use it, and "you may discard this card to capture the hero" keeps y'all from using brutal combos that make the young'ns (and old'ns) cry.
I agree that this is the best idea, whatever my opinion is worth. :P
But anyway, back on the original topic which has mostly been forgotten, I just want to make absolutely sure that the Holy of Holies + Queen Maachah combo works?
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i wanna hear what bryon has to say about trumpets
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I wanna hear what Schaef has to say about the University of Michigan.
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I wanna hear what Schaef has to say about the University of Michigan.
I wanna hear what SoulSeeker has to say about the University of North Carolina.