Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Master KChief on September 17, 2009, 01:38:21 AM
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will a negate evil enhancement card (for sake of argument, holy ground) work against deafening spirit once its already played?
Holy Ground
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate and discard the last evil enhancement played in current battle. • Identifiers: OT, Based on Prophecy • Verse: Exodus 3:5 • Availability: F Deck
Deafening Spirit
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate and discard the last good Enhancement played this battle. You may treat this card as an Evil Character until the end of this battle. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Mark 9:25 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Common)
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No, because it is no longer an Enhancement.
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thats what i was initially leaning towards.
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That's what I always thought too but at Nationals it was ruled that DS would be negated.
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That's what I always thought too but at Nationals it was ruled that DS would be negated.
That might have been ruled incorrectly. I think I remember there being a thread about this before, and it was decided differently. I don't have a strong opinion on this one, but it might be worth someone checking into more.
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I remember the thread prof mentioned I believe it was ruled differently. I thought it was ruled that it couldn't be negated, because it is no longer the last evil enhancement in battle.
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because it is no longer the last evil enhancement in battle.
What if you just negate any/all evil enhancements, as opposed to the last?
(Examples: Scapegoat, Covenant of Noah, etc.)
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regardless if it has turned into an EC, it was originally an enhancement. Holy ground is worded "Negate and discard the last evil enhancement played in current battle"] I would have to believe that it would be negated.
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Schaef thinks in this thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=16919.msg265117#msg265117) that because it is no longer an enhancement, it can no longer be targeted as one (assuming it is being treated as an EC). The thread is also referenced here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=16915.0).
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While Deafening Spirit is now a Character, it was an enhancment when played. Similar to how Holy Ground (a negate last) can negate an enhancment that was used then discarded (say Abner's Spear), I don't see why it wouldn't negate an enhancment that was used then converted. Now if there was a card that said "Negate and discard an Evil Enhancment in battle" (I'm sure there is, I just can't think of one atm) then it could not target DS, since DS is no longer an enhancement.
So basically, I disagree with The Schaef, but that's just because I don't see the difference between an enhancement becoming a discarded enhancement and an enhancement becoming an EC in terms of targetability as an enhancement.
The question remains, if a negate last can't negate DS, then what was the last enhancement played?
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The question remains, if a negate last can't negate DS, then what was the last enhancement played?
Presumably it would be whatever evil enhancement (if any) was played prior to DS.
On a side note, I'm still wondering if the outcome is the same when using a negate any/all rather than a negate last.
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Negate any won't work, since it's no longer an enhancement.
Negate all (not just enhancements) would negate it. Negate all enhancements wouldn't.
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Hey,
I agree with Professor Alstad and his logic.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I agree as well. But for a card that says "negate one evil enhancements in battle," it wouldn't work, right prof?
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Negate any won't work, since it's no longer an enhancement.
Negate all (not just enhancements) would negate it. Negate all enhancements wouldn't.
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Regardless if it is an EC now it had the history of being the "last enhancement played" fitting the requirements for holy ground
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i see it pretty similiar to the gold shield/third heaven ruling. the state of something has changed, and therefore can no longer be used as before. with gold shield, you cant use an interrupt from the brigade you used to be, and with third heaven you cant use the interrupt/negate that was shuffled into the deck by it.
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I think that might be a different type of thing chief. Those scenarios are true because cards are discarded, and therefore cannot be interrupted. This card stays in play... it just changes "form."
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no, its very similiar, especially in gold shields case. something has changed a 'state'; you are not allowed to do something based on somethings state. for gold shield you cannot interrupt with the color of previous brigade, and with third heaven you cannot interrupt with a card shuffled in. same thing...ds has now changed its state, and you cannot target a previous state.
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Actually, all three are different. Third Heaven gets rid of the interrupt. Gold Shield makes it so the interrupt cannot be played. Deafening Spirit changes the state of the enhancement to a character which might make it seem unable to be targeted by the interrupt.
However, I did a little digging, here's something from the REG (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/specialconditions26.htm):
"Placing a card in the discard pile removes it from play, but does not remove the ability to negate it by (1) interrupting the battle or (2) interrupting the last enhancement played in battle. However, a "negate last enhancement" negates the last enhancement regardless of its current state (in play, discard pile, converted to a character, etc.)."
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I agree as well. But for a card that says "negate one evil enhancements in battle," it wouldn't work, right prof?
That is certain. You cannot negate a character with a card that says negate an evil enhancement. You can (according to the REG--nice find sk) negate the last enhancement played, regardless of it's current state, with a card that says negate the last enhancement played.
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However, I did a little digging, here's something from the REG (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/specialconditions26.htm):
"Placing a card in the discard pile removes it from play, but does not remove the ability to negate it by (1) interrupting the battle or (2) interrupting the last enhancement played in battle. However, a "negate last enhancement" negates the last enhancement regardless of its current state (in play, discard pile, converted to a character, etc.)."
as i figured.