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I'm pretty sure any enhancement that is CBN sticks, regardless of whether it was added to battle via Play ability, Add To Battle ability, or regular initiative.

Quote from: jmhartz on August 22, 2017, 08:00:52 AM

I'm pretty sure any enhancement that is CBN sticks, regardless of whether it was added to battle via Play ability, Add To Battle ability, or regular initiative.

Some CBN cards "stick" and some don't. That's been the ruling (and correct way to play) since before I was introduced to the game. The problem is that I don't know if it was ever codified. If it was it seems to have been lost. Maybe it was just a post on the forum by a member of a previous elder team. Either way, it's a problem to not have it work that way and a problem that it's not codified.

We realized this a couple months ago and began discussing how to (re)introduce the concept that "CBN sticks" to the game. There are card types that MUST "stick" such as Dominants (and traditionally enhancements) or they allow for broken combos, the worse of which is "cloning" a Dominant to get multiple uses out of it. But there are other CBN card types that don't "stick", nor do they need to, like characters.

I realize this answer isn't all that helpful if you're looking for a cut and dry solution. It's something we are formalizing for REG 5.0 so we will have a better answer in the near future.

I agree with pretty much everything you've stated. But I don't think that's the entire picture. TBH I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the entire picture sometimes (thank goodness we have a team working on it). Cascades are ugly. I'd love to see them go away. But it's not a change we'll rush into. Something like that needs to be well vetted and it's possible we will still overlook something.

Some CBN cards "stick" and some don't. That's been the ruling (and correct way to play) since before I was introduced to the game. The problem is that I don't know if it was ever codified. If it was it seems to have been lost. Maybe it was just a post on the forum by a member of a previous elder team. Either way, it's a problem to not have it work that way and a problem that it's not codified.

I have never had a problem with cascade negates because it's consistent with the definition of negate. I'm not sure changing the definition of negate is the way to go either, whenever you have a lot of abilities interacting things are going to get complicated either way. The status quo seems fine.

It's complicated in a different way. If you change how negate works then you have to explain why the evil character's ability is still able to be active after you interrupt and prevent a dull lost soul that searched it out, because if you are preventing the search he could never be in battle to activate his ability. It can get a bit complicated too, maybe not as much, but if you woes your dull lost soul which got out an auto block EC like fire foxes you get to block without using up your EC. Or get out Domitian with dull and they play an interrupt the battle in si and band in Paul to negate dull. Domitian gets put back and you are left explaining why the original hero is being removed. With cascade negate the only difference is Domitian is negated, but in both cases it does get complicated and you might have to cite the rules to your opponent. But why confuse people by changing the rules to create a new system where you are going to have to cite the new rules, in some cases, anyways.

Negating a search means that you are undoing getting a character out of deck and adding it to hand. If you undo getting the character out of deck he has to go back to deck, that's a direct negation that happens to remove the evil character from battle but does not undo the block. The cascade aspect of negate indirectly negates the ability of the evil character in battle because negate undoes all abilities that happened as a result of the ability being negated, but cannot negate the game action of block do to it's transcendent properties.

However, when you band in a character to battle the ability let's him join a rescue/block/ battle challenge not a game action of presenting the character, so his presence can be "undone".

Absolutely nothing more than the exact words of an ability should be undone when it is negated.

I actually like the current Cascade Negating (at least given how Redemption functions), it makes sense to me and it's usually pretty easy to follow in my experience. There are a few weird situations that come up and some things need to get clearly defined, but I don't think I'd like to see Cascade Negating be done away with.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on August 22, 2017, 04:56:13 PM

Think of negating as doing the ability again but as its inverse. Dull searches your deck and puts the card into your hand. Therefore, negating the search should take the card from your hand and put it back in your deck. When the search is negated, the game attempts to do the inverse of Dull's ability and move the card from hand to deck but fails to find (as the EC is no longer in hand) so nothing happens.

My understanding is that the default for search is adding to hand, which is not apart of the search ability itself. This is equivalent to printing on every unspecified search card "and add to hand". Abraham's descendants says "search... and place them beneath owners decks". So if you negate dull with 3 woes the search is negated and you do the reverse of taking the card out of your deck and the reverse of putting the card in your hand. If you can't do one of these actions then don't do it.

(cascade negate has gone in and out of redemption several times since I started playing in 2012)

I hadn't recognized the actual use of cascade negate in its current form until this year.  Call me blind if you want but I've been apart of several high level tournament and not really seen cascade rules like it was this year, until this year.

I remember a short stretch where it was brought up in 14-15 but it seemed to me it got held down before it got started.  Again maybe this is an area thing but my experience at nats has not been built around cascade until this year.