Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: emonier on March 10, 2017, 07:50:47 AM
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Hey Guys,
I have a question about Moses.
If Moses is in my territory, (he negates enhancements in territories), how would he affect a card like TREASURES OF WAR?
In other words, could I still play Treasures of War with Moses in my territory? Note: Treasures of War is a "Place in Territory/then Discard (to get the effect)" type of card. If the effect (of Treasures) happens when Treasures is discarded, would that get around Moses' negating?
Also, I have the same question for KING'S POMP...
Kings's Pomp says: "Place on your evil king." But, would that effect also be negated by Moses? Also, would the card stay on the evil king even though it is being negated?
(Moses does not negate and discard; he only negates).
Thank you!
emonier
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If TC enhancements like Treasures of War or King's Pomp are played in territory, then Moses prevents them.
However, Treasures of War is CBN if a Brown king is in play when it is played - this would let it be played through Moses' Prevent ability.
Also, if "Place" enhancements are played in battle, even if they get placed in territory, Moses does not prevent them, since they activated in battle.
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Make sure you have a Jericho in your deck that way all your evil territory enhancement can still be played when Moses is in play.
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Make sure you have a Jericho in your deck that way all your evil territory enhancement can still be played when Moses is in play.
Jeremy, great tip! Thank you!
I did not know that.
-E
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I hope I didn't just give you something to beat me with at the tournament next week LOL
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To add on that, you can technically play them in territory, they'll just be negated. But if you can find a card to make it CBP/CBN or use its own effect, you can play it and Moses can't negate it.
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To add on that, you can technically play them in territory, they'll just be negated. But if you can find a card to make it CBP/CBN or use its own effect, you can play it and Moses can't negate it.
Actually you can't play them in territory. The play portion is part of the special ability that's negated by Moses. This very issue (whether they can still be played in territory but the ability itself negated) was brought up on a thread a few months ago.
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You can play them in territory, they would just be prevented if Moses was in play.
However, if they were CBP enhancements (Hypocrisy, Invoking Terror) then they would work. Also, if you had Jericho then that would make them CBP and they would work then as well.
To be clear--Moses does not stop the playing of TC enhancements. He only prevents them from activating.
Covenant with Death (a restrict ability) would stop the playing of TC enhancements.
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You can play them in territory, they would just be prevented if Moses was in play.
However, if they were CBP enhancements (Hypocrisy, Invoking Terror) then they would work. Also, if you had Jericho then that would make them CBP and they would work then as well.
To be clear--Moses does not stop the playing of TC enhancements. He only prevents them from activating.
Covenant with Death (a restrict ability) would stop the playing of TC enhancements.
+1
That's always been the case, because if it wasn't then FBTN cards would make you unable to play Enhancements in battle otherwise.
Now I wouldn't suggest playing a non-CBP/CBN while Moses can negate them. But you can play them to your heart's content. They just won't do anything.
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Actually you can't play them in territory. The play portion is part of the special ability that's negated by Moses.
Being able to play TC enhancements in territory during Prep/Discard phase is a game rule, not a special ability. A "Play" ability is something you see on Ethiopean Treasurer, Reach of Desperation, Hidden Treasures, etc.
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Does Moses negate set aside cards? Played in territory, I would guess so but I'm just checking.
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Does Moses negate set aside cards? Played in territory, I would guess so but I'm just checking.
Yes, as they don't even go to Set-Aside anymore. They play in territory and are discarded.
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Correct, Moses would prevent a set aside enhancement from activating.
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This is the thread I was referring to and why I mentioned Moses would negate the placement. See my post at the very bottom of the thread and Kevin's reply to my question. I was going by Kevin's reply; and since an elder didn't respond to Kevin's post I assumed his answer was correct.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/moses-placed-ees/msg562991/#msg562991 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/moses-placed-ees/msg562991/#msg562991)
So I stand corrected.
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Okay, there's two different things being referenced here.
Moses does prevent "TC place" enhancements from being placed, but he does not stop them from being played.
I can still play Image of Jealousy (TXP), but if Moses prevents it from activating, it just fizzles and goes to the discard pile.
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Okay, there's two different things being referenced here.
Moses does prevent "TC place" enhancements from being placed, but he does not stop them from being played.
I can still play Image of Jealousy (TXP), but if Moses prevents it from activating, it just fizzles and goes to the discard pile.
Ok I see where I went wrong in first post above. I meant to say placed instead of played, hence the subsequent confusion I caused.
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Also, if "Place" enhancements are played in battle, even if they get placed in territory, Moses does not prevent them, since they activated in battle.
Are you sure about this? Whether Moses was in territory or in battle why wouldn't he still prevent played/placed cards in territory even if they were played in battle? His ability says he negates enhancements in territory, and this ability is on-going even when he's in battle. What am I missing here?
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Also, if "Place" enhancements are played in battle, even if they get placed in territory, Moses does not prevent them, since they activated in battle.
Are you sure about this? Whether Moses was in territory or in battle why wouldn't he still prevent played/placed cards in territory even if they were played in battle? His ability says he negates enhancements in territory, and this ability is on-going even when he's in battle. What am I missing here?
What your missing is that the Enhancement was played in Battle and therefore can only be negated in that battle. When it plays to territory it's already resolved and will stay indefinitely therefore Moses can't make it fizzle. As well as if it was played on a CBI/CBN character, its effect will not be stopped by Moses ever.
As to if Moses can negate the ongoing effect... I can't say for sure, but I'd lean towards no he can't because it had to be negated in battle. But then again I'm not sure on how that would work for TC Characters.
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Are you sure about this? Whether Moses was in territory or in battle why wouldn't he still prevent played/placed cards in territory even if they were played in battle? His ability says he negates enhancements in territory, and this ability is on-going even when he's in battle. What am I missing here?
This is something that causes confusion among many players, even more experienced ones.
Moses' "Negate all" ability is actually two abilities. One is an instant ability, the other is an ongoing ability. All Negate abilities that are ongoing (Captain of the Host, King of Tyrus, etc.) are like this.
His instant ability is "Negate". Negates are always instant.
His ongoing ability is "Prevent". Prevents are always ongoing for some duration.
So when an enhancement with a Place ability (like Treasures of War or King's Pomp) is played in battle, it activates in battle. Even if it gets placed in territory, it isn't being activated in territory, which is what Moses' ongoing Prevent can stop.
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As another example, Benaiah (Kings) is blocked by a Pale Green EC. The blocker plays Two Thousand Horses, interrupts Benaiah's ongoing Prevent, and plays Confusion. After Confusion resolves, Benaiah's ability kicks back in. However, even though it says "Negate", his ongoing ability is only a Prevent, and therefore Benaiah doesn't negate Confusion.
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+1 great explanation Josh.
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If you play a place enhancement in battle (ie gams speech) to territory you can still use the enh that phase with Moses in terroritory as it was not prevented when played and placed during that phase. For example, playing Joy from battle on your own hero in territory while you also have Moses in territory. Played in territory, it's prevented by Moses. Played in battle, it is not.
After that phase, until Moses retriggers to once again negate and or prevent, the enhancement may still be used and the place ability itself is cbi at that point
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As another example, Benaiah (Kings) is blocked by a Pale Green EC. The blocker plays Two Thousand Horses, interrupts Benaiah's ongoing Prevent, and plays Confusion. After Confusion resolves, Benaiah's ability kicks back in. However, even though it says "Negate", his ongoing ability is only a Prevent, and therefore Benaiah doesn't negate Confusion.
So explain to me how TKH would not be prevented by Benaiah. I thought anything that was wasn't CBP would always be prevented regardless of whether or not it said interrupt.
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Kings doesn't negate weapons
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Nevermind, missed that for some reason! That is why I like to play the Warriors version!
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If you play a place enhancement in battle (ie gams speech) to territory you can still use the enh that phase with Moses in terroritory as it was not prevented when played and placed during that phase. For example, playing Joy from battle on your own hero in territory while you also have Moses in territory. Played in territory, it's prevented by Moses. Played in battle, it is not.
After that phase, until Moses retriggers to once again negate and or prevent, the enhancement may still be used and the place ability itself is cbi at that point
I still don't understand why Moses, if he was in territory, would still not prevent the placement of Joy or any other enh that was played in battle when that enh is being placed in territory. If Moses is negating souls (preventing their abilities) while he's sitting in territory even while another hero is doing a rescue attempt, why doesn't Moses also prevent enh from being placed in territory even if they were played during battle? His ability is "Negate enhancements, Lost Souls, and characters in territories except Cloud cards."
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And on a similar topic, if I used Faith of Gideon to bring my KoT (Priests version) into a side battle, would he negate FoG? His ability says Negate special abilities on all characters and enhancements, or would the side battle be considered a different phase in which FoG couldn't be negated? I'm assuming his ability defaults to all characters and enhs in play (including those that are in territories such as Gam's Speech or Rahab) since his ability doesn't specify "while in battle" (Warriors version says "battle is determined by the numbers").
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It's just like playing provisions in battle to set aside a hero in territory or wheel within a wheel in battle to find an angel and place them in territory. Moses doesn't retroactively prevent wheel when it finishes in territory, but was played from battle where it was not prevented to begin with
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Yes kot would negate fog
Side battles are the same battle phase and often field of battle
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It's just like playing provisions in battle to set aside a hero in territory or wheel within a wheel in battle to find an angel and place them in territory. Moses doesn't retroactively prevent wheel when it finishes in territory, but was played from battle where it was not prevented to begin with
I get it but it is obviously a very confusing ability.
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Yes kot would negate fog
Side battles are the same battle phase and often field of battle
Ok, and verifying he would negate GS and Rahab too?
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correct because he is coming in after they were played to negate the enhancements in play along with preventing further enhancements which have yet to be played in battle
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Thanks
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I still don't understand why Moses, if he was in territory, would still not prevent the placement of Joy or any other enh that was played in battle when that enh is being placed in territory.
The key is understanding what Moses' Prevent ability does. Prevent abilities stop special abilities from activating before they have activated. Prevents can't do anything to abilities that have already activated.
So when Joy is played in battle, it fully activates the instant it is played. If you place Joy on Moses or any other hero in territory, Moses doesn't Prevent it because Joy isn't trying to activate; it's already activated, and is simply carrying out its ability.
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So does this mean warrior class enhancements can be played on Warriors in the territory because the special ability doesn't activate until they enter battle.
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yes
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So does this mean warrior class enhancements can be played on Warriors in the territory because the special ability doesn't activate until they enter battle.
WCEs are different in that their placement in territory is not predicated upon a special ability on the card causing the placement (like Gam's Speech or King's Pomp); it's just a character grabbing a weapon, essentially; so Moses has no effect on the placement of WCEs in territory.
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I still don't understand why Moses, if he was in territory, would still not prevent the placement of Joy or any other enh that was played in battle when that enh is being placed in territory.
The key is understanding what Moses' Prevent ability does. Prevent abilities stop special abilities from activating before they have activated. Prevents can't do anything to abilities that have already activated.
So when Joy is played in battle, it fully activates the instant it is played. If you place Joy on Moses or any other hero in territory, Moses doesn't Prevent it because Joy isn't trying to activate; it's already activated, and is simply carrying out its ability.
After thinking about it I understand how it does work. In my mind I kept thinking the placement part of the ability was being done in territory (even though it was activated in battle), thus Moses' negation of it. But when I realized the placement was an action during battle then it made sense to me how it can be placed in territory without being prevented. I know this was essentially said throughout the thread, I just didn't really get it until I realized the ability activated as a battle action and is then placed in territory. Thanks for y'all's patience and direction!