Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: SirTimothy on November 30, 2010, 05:29:14 PM
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If Jephthah attacks and uses his special ability and I block with KoT, negating the discards, and Jephthah still survives the battle, can he use his ability again?
If an artifact's special ability may only be used twice, but negated, not discarded can that ability get used more than twice if I had already used it previously
Jephthah (Pa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 7 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Once per game, holder may discard any two evil characters in a territory or set-aside area if holder discards the top card from Holder's draw pile. • Play As: Holder may discard the top card from his deck to discard any two Evil Characters in a territory or set-aside area. Limit once per player per game • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Judges 11:11 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Uncommon)
The Silver Trumpets (Pi)
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory into battle or interrupt the battle and return your Heroes in battle to hand. May be used twice. • Play As: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory or interrupt the battle, withdraw your Heroes, and return them to hand. May be used twice. • Identifiers: OT, Tabernacle Item, Temple Item • Verse: Numbers 10:2 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
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If the ability was negated, it wasn't actually used. So yes, you could use them again.
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uncorrect ut wus used but the use wus nut useful
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You used it, it was just negated.
The ability was sent out but was ineffective.
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If the ability was negated, you can try again later.
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So I can use silver trumpets once in my tabernacle, then attack with Eleazar, son of Aaron, negate and flip over my trumpets, and next turn use them again?
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Ark of the Covenant??
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I would say yes. I like your thinking. You negate the part that specifies it can only be used twice, so it resets. Not sure on that though.
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I would say no. You cannot negate the "use" from a previous turn. You can negate the current use, in which case you are not really using it. Once it is used a second time, and not negated, it is discarded.
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So I can use silver trumpets once in my tabernacle, then attack with Eleazar, son of Aaron, negate and flip over my trumpets, and next turn use them again?
Well, if you haven't banded or withdrawn any Heroes, then you haven't really used the card, have you?
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I would say no. You cannot negate the "use" from a previous turn. You can negate the current use, in which case you are not really using it. Once it is used a second time, and not negated, it is discarded.
Shuffling it resets it. Why would it be different?
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Because cards reset in deck by game rule. Cards to not reset by being deactivated by game rule (fortunately).
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What would happen If HoH is on your art pile and Lampstand is on tabernacle, then I attack with Eleazar, but his negate is negated. Would Lampstand's effect still happen during the turn in addition to the new artifact's ability?
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Post abilities plz.
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Because cards reset in deck by game rule. Cards to not reset by being deactivated by game rule (fortunately).
But you aren't just deactivating it. You're negating it, thus negating the "May be used twice" and resetting it.
What would happen If HoH is on your art pile and Lampy is on tabernacle, then I attack with Eleazar, but his negate is negated. Would Lampy's effect still happen during the turn in addition to the new artifact's ability?
Yes.
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That doesn't make sense. If I used the card the first time two turns ago, and then I negate its activation this turn, it doesn't cancel the fact that I used it once before. You can't negate the use of abilities on previous turns.
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Eleazar, son of Aaron (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: 8 / 9 • Class: None • Special Ability: Heal a Hero in play. When a blocker is presented, you may activate a different Artifact in your Tabernacle. Negate previous Artifact. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Tabernacle High Priest (House of Eleazar) • Verse: Leviticus 10:6 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Uncommon)
Holy of Holies (Pi)
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Prevent all interrupt, prevent, and negate abilities on Characters. Cannot be negated during the battle phase. • Identifiers: OT, Tabernacle Item, Temple Item • Verse: I Kings 8:6 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Common)
The Tabernacle (Pi)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Glory of the Lord protects this card and its contents. If you have Solomon’s Temple in play, discard this card (regardless of protection) and transfer its contents to Solomon’s Temple. • Play As: Glory of the Lord protects this card and its contents. If you have Solomon’s Temple in play, discard this card (regardless of protection) and exchange it and place its contents in Solomon’s Temple. Solomon's Temple may hold one active Tabernacle Artifact. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: Exodus 40:34 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
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That doesn't make sense. If I used the card the first time two turns ago, and then I negate its activation this turn, it doesn't cancel the fact that I used it once before. You can't negate the use of abilities on previous turns.
Then shuffling shouldn't either.
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Then shuffling shouldn't either.
Why?
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Then shuffling shouldn't either.
Why?
It doesn't cancel the fact that I used it once before.
For consistency. The logic should apply to both.
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Tell me again why negating an effect and resetting a card all the way to its face value are supposed to be treated the same?
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Shuffling resets it to face value. Why? That's my question. How is it any different then negating it? It doesn't change the fact that it was already used once, just like shuffling a character in doesn't change the fact it has already entered battle.
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You're asking why shuffling a card does not have the same effect as negating it? Maybe cuz they're two completely different things? :P
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It doesn't change the fact that it was already used once, just like shuffling a character in doesn't change the fact it has already entered battle.
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I'm still not sure what you think is inconsistent. Can you give me a game scenario involving actual cards?
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Shuffling resets it to face value. Why? That's my question. How is it any different then negating it? It doesn't change the fact that it was already used once, just like shuffling a character in doesn't change the fact it has already entered battle.
You're jumping the fence here, which is causing a stir. You were not debating that shuffle and negate are the same. You were trying to make sense of what Schaef was saying. Perhaps his explanation just doesn't catch for you.
The sentence "May be used twice" activated at the same time the artifact first activated. That turn ended. "May be used twice" can now not be negated, because it activated on a previous turn. The second use was then tried, but negated. You can not negate the "May be used twice," but you can negate the second use. Of course, if it is an instant ability, the artifact is supposed to be immediately discarded, so it should be hard to target for a negate.
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It doesn't change the fact that it was already used once, just like shuffling a character in doesn't change the fact it has already entered battle.
I can see why you would think that's inconsistent, but it works differently. Used X per game and enter battle once per turn start out similar in that there's some sort of table memory keeping track of it, but since they're different rulings on different abilities they don't work exactly the same. Used X per game is "remembered" by the game. Characters entering battle are "remembered" by the turn for every instance of a unique character or generic character who remains in play. Used X (not per game) is "remembered" by the card, and resets when the card is shuffled or returned to hand. That make more sense?
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It doesn't change the fact that it was already used once, just like shuffling a character in doesn't change the fact it has already entered battle.
I can see why you would think that's inconsistent, but it works differently. Used X per game and enter battle once per turn start out similar in that there's some sort of table memory keeping track of it, but since they're different rulings on different abilities they don't work exactly the same. Used X per game is "remembered" by the game. Characters entering battle are "remembered" by the turn for every instance of a unique character or generic character who remains in play. Used X (not per game) is "remembered" by the card, and resets when the card is shuffled or returned to hand. That make more sense?
Yes, thank you.
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Was there a ruling on banding in multiple generic characters in a turn? If it gets shuffled into deck, can it enter battle again this turn? If not, is there some limit on how many times you can band in a generic character? I don't remember seeing any rule on this yet.
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I can see why you would think that's inconsistent, but it works differently. Used X per game and enter battle once per turn start out similar in that there's some sort of table memory keeping track of it, but since they're different rulings on different abilities they don't work exactly the same. Used X per game is "remembered" by the game. Characters entering battle are "remembered" by the turn for every instance of a unique character or generic character who remains in play. Used X (not per game) is "remembered" by the card, and resets when the card is shuffled or returned to hand. That make more sense?
That is where I thought the confusion came from, but didn't know quite the best way to explain it, nice job Pol.
Was there a ruling on banding in multiple generic characters in a turn? If it gets shuffled into deck, can it enter battle again this turn? If not, is there some limit on how many times you can band in a generic character? I don't remember seeing any rule on this yet.
I have no ruling back-up but I believe the rule is that you can band in a specific generic character once per battle. For example, if you have 2 Tribal Elders banded and one of them withdraws or is kicked out by an evil ability, you cannot band that particular one back into that same battle. If you had a 3rd Tribal Elder, you could band that one in. However, let's say you have 2 Assyrian Archers banded and one of them gets shuffled during battle. I believe you would be allowed to use Unknown Nation and band in the one in your deck because it reset. However, a unique character can only enter battle once per battle, even if it is shuffled. The reason you can do this for generics (and not uniques) is because of situations like this:
I have 5 Assyrian Archers (T2 deck).
3 are banded in battle.
1 gets shuffled while in battle (Two Bears)
I now have 3 in my deck that I can get with active Unknown Nation, but I have no way of knowing which of the 3 was the one who was in battle once already.
I could be completely wrong, but this is how I've understood characters entering the same battle more than once.
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Well, you can have 5 Queen Tahpenes' in a Type 2 deck, too, and the same situation could apply. That doesn't really explain why generics get special treatment over uniques.
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For the obvious reason being many generics can be in battle at the same time. Using a "one entrance per battle" rule for Generics would make Absolom's Soldiers' SA literally useless, among many other obviously wrong things.
Just use your brain here. Generics aren't getting "special treatment." Generics are not the same as uniques, so it would be foolish to expect all rules to apply to them the same way.
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Generics aren't getting "special treatment." Generics are not the same as uniques, so it would be foolish to expect all rules to apply to them the same way.
And you'd be correct if I was at all referring to the banding rules for each class of character, however that is not what I was referring to.
The "special treatment" I was referring to is the difference in the definition of "reset" for generic vs. unique characters. According to you, generics get to fully and completely reset in deck, but uniques don't. That seems like unnecessary confusion and inconsistency.
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They reset to their default state individually in the draw pile. That is nothing to do with the state of what characters are in battle.
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Generics and uniques both fully reset in deck. But as far as entering battle once per turn, the turn remembers unique characters even if a specific copy of the unique character got reset. So you can't have Two Bears played on Salome then use Unknown Nation to bring Salome into battle. Generic characters are different. If I block you with Pharisees banded to Pharisees and you return one to territory, I can't band that one back into battle. But I can band to one from deck or hand, even if it's the same art. Furthermore, if you shuffle Pharisees into my deck, I can use Unknown Nation to go get Pharisees.
It has to do with the difference between generic and unique, considering generic is different than unique it makes perfect sense to me.