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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: browarod on August 23, 2010, 04:25:13 AM

Title: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: browarod on August 23, 2010, 04:25:13 AM
Quote from: BrianGabe
The vocal minority on these boards whines far too much.
Really? Are you serious? I'm having trouble believing you actually said that.... We presented our case, we provided logical, concise, and clear reasons and evidences for it, you guys provided only "Some cards in Redemption have no reference.  The end." as the reason for the current 'ruling', and you claim WE are whining? Please, I beg of you to explain to me how that constitutes "whining".

You've got your ruling.  A few of you don't like it.  We get it.
Do you? Do you really? Because you've provided exactly 0 reasons/evidences to support your "It doesn't have a printed reference so therefore it doesn't have a reference at all" 'ruling'. Sure, giving it the Matthew reference would make it combo-able with Matthew, but wouldn't it have been better to design the new cards differently rather than to continue in an inconsistent and baseless 'ruling' that undermines the very basis of the game as a whole?

It's just a card game folks.  Time to move on with your life.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that none of us have anything better to do than sit here and argue with you just for the sake of arguing. My, isn't your pedestal high. Some may not (I can't speak for everyone), but I have a life thanks very much. I go to college, I work as close to full-time as I can get scheduled for, I hang out with family and friends, I play games in my spare time. Is Redemption going to still be included in that from now on? I don't know. Maybe if you had actually supported your decision with more than just "accept it or move on" it might have lent more credence to your arguments. Redemption being "just a card game" doesn't mean (seemingly) bad rulings and (apparently) flimsy arguments should be allowed to be enough reason for game-changing decisions. If there's a good reason for AoCP and all those other cards not to have references then say it. It would be infinitely closer to an actual resolution than "it doesn't have a reference. deal with it."

I mean no disrespect, and I apologize if anything I've said has come across that way (varying work schedules keeps me almost constantly in a tired state). I merely wish to know why no effort has been given to providing any kind of reason besides that which I posted about above. Are we not worth your time/effort? Do you have something against us?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Red on August 23, 2010, 07:04:21 AM
Every card should have a refence this is a bible card game after all.(I count joesephus)
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 08:12:28 AM
"We presented our case, we provided logical, concise, and clear reasons and evidences for it"

I would like to see a list of these clear, logical and concise reasons and evidences (both plural) for this argument.

Having read through the thread for the first time, this is my observation of the discussion in brief:
1). Does AoCP recur with Matthew?
2). No, because the ability refers to cards with a certain reference.  The card has no reference on it.
3). The card has a "play-as" reference listed in the REG (this is not correct, btw.  Play-As rewords the special ability.  The scripture reference is listed several points below both the special ability and the play-as.  There is no such thing as a "play-as reference")
4). If the reference in the REG is not supposed to alter the card, it should not be in the REG
5). It's not clear how or why that reference was placed in the REG but it will not appear in any future editions.

A thread that can be distilled into five major points ended up going on for five pages, and resulted in a lot of spam, and accusations that - inexplicably - a card with a condition based on the scripture reference on the card should work even if there is no scripture reference on the card, and that to say otherwise is the single worst ruling in the history of the game, as well as accusations that the elders do not strive for consistency, that erratas are meaningless, that the REG can just be ignored on a whim, and so forth.  And now you're making thinly-veiled threats to leaving the game because of "flimsy arguments" and "inconsistent, baseless rulings that undermine the entire game".  You don't agree this seems like a lot just based a single ruling based on a single, logical premise?

It was stated that if a card is contingent on a certain reference, the reference on the card is the condition that triggers it.  I got burned a long time ago by a misprinted reference on Seeker of the Lost that precludes me from using it in a Luke deck.  It happens.  It was also stated that if printing scripture references in the REG for purposes of edification is only causing confusion, then those references would be removed from future editions.  As far as I can tell, that addresses everything related to this particular ruling question.  I'm not clear on what else remains unresolved on the issue or what about the issue causes a problem for the entire game.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 23, 2010, 08:34:56 AM
You could look at Gabriel (Ki) vs. Gabriel (Wa). Why were these cards printed with different verses (sorry, references)? Will the Authority of Christ (promo) every recieve a reference? Ive heard good points that it should because its a game based on the bible and every card in the game should have a reference. I agree. Can we give this card and every other card without a reference a home?

Gabriel (Ki)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may search any draw pile for one evil enhancement and discard it. Shuffle draw pile. • Play As: Search any deck for one evil enhancement and discard it. • Identifiers: OT Male Angel, Prophet • Verse: Daniel 8:16 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)

Gabriel (Wa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: None • Special Ability: Look through opponent's draw pile and discard one enhancement card. Shuffle draw pile. • Play As: Search any opponent's deck and discard one enhancement card. • Identifiers: NT Male Angel, Prophet • Verse: Luke 1:19 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Uncommon)

and to address the post above:
Quote
3). The card has a "play-as" reference listed in the REG (this is not correct, btw.  Play-As rewords the special ability.  The scripture reference is listed several points below both the special ability and the play-as.  There is no such thing as a "play-as reference")
4). If the reference in the REG is not supposed to alter the card, it should not be in the REG
5). It's not clear how or why that reference was placed in the REG but it will not appear in any future editions.

the play as is for the sake of the REG to help it work properly. It was given the reference because of this, im sure-

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fredemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FAuthority%2520of%2520Christ%2520%28L%29.gif&hash=331ecc6e8760e0b6bae11ecc79a99d8fac382cf7)
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 08:41:18 AM
You could look at Gabriel (Ki) vs. Gabriel (Wa). Why were these cards printed with different verses (sorry, references)?

Because they were printed with different references.

Quote
Will the Authority of Christ (promo) every recieve a reference?

The card has already been printed.  That horse is already out of the barn.  The only way it can "receive" a reference is if the card itself is given ERRATA to include something that is not on the card.  However, people here have not been arguing to give the card errata, they have been saying that the ruling should include Authority promo ANYWAY.

The issue was raised when the problem with Seeker was discovered, and it was eventually decided not to give the card errata just to "make it more playable".  That's not a guarantee of future results but it's a good indicator of how I expect things to go.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Red on August 23, 2010, 08:49:12 AM
But every card should have some form of refences I don't care if it's from spongebob it needs a reference! Those who say it doesn't need a reference are the ones who make no sense and are wrong.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 23, 2010, 08:51:37 AM
for probably the first time since the inception of the system, you have earned yourself a + 1 RED. and a cookie.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 09:27:59 AM
But every card should have some form of refences I don't care if it's from spongebob it needs a reference! Those who say it doesn't need a reference are the ones who make no sense and are wrong.

Can you demonstrate to me an example of someone saying a card does not need a reference?

Since Jon supports your claim, I'll accept an answer from him as well.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The M on August 23, 2010, 09:41:26 AM
But every card should have some form of refences I don't care if it's from spongebob it needs a reference! Those who say it doesn't need a reference are the ones who make no sense and are wrong.
out of curiosity, what reference would that be?
squidward could be Ecclesiastes 1:2.
Meaningless, Meaningless, everything is meaningless.
LOL :)
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on August 23, 2010, 09:43:24 AM
Here is your example, Schaef. Don't look at context. 

a card does not need a reference
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Smokey on August 23, 2010, 09:47:36 AM
Can you demonstrate to me an example of someone saying a card does not need a reference?

Since Jon supports your claim, I'll accept an answer from him as well.

Does saying a card won't have a reference count?

Quote
I'm guesing that years ago, Mike thought it would be nice to have that so that players could know what story the card is based on.  Maybe so they could look it up and read about it.  He could have just as easily listed Mark 8 or Luke 8 (and then we wouldn't be having this discussion... yet).

But it is NOT errata.  It is not an official part of the card.  It will not appear in the new REG, so that it does not cause confusion.  Treat it currently as a way to look up the story, and nothing more.  It is not an official addition to the card, just like the Luke reference in the Seeker of the Lost entry is not official.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Red on August 23, 2010, 09:52:55 AM
But every card should have some form of refences I don't care if it's from spongebob it needs a reference! Those who say it doesn't need a reference are the ones who make no sense and are wrong.

Can you demonstrate to me an example of someone saying a card does not need a reference?

Since Jon supports your claim, I'll accept an answer from him as well.
Bryon said some cards don't have a reference and I take that as don't need a reference.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 23, 2010, 09:54:18 AM
so why does AoC (pr) not have a reference?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: sk on August 23, 2010, 09:58:54 AM
When they added the fancy "Tournament Participant" text where the verse was, the reference was also removed.  After they returned to printing the verse for Emperor Augustus (its use wasn't decided until after printing), somebody got clever and figured the references could be printed, even if the verse itself wasn't there.

Since the reference wasn't printed on some promos, they were ruled to not have a reference a long time ago.  I'm quite confused why some long-time players are fighting this.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 10:05:55 AM
Bryon said some cards don't have a reference and I take that as don't need a reference.

Why do you take it that way?  To say a card does not have a reference is only a statement of fact.

I think the total number of cards with no reference are less than twenty, and I'm not sure that ANY of those come after somewhere around 2003ish.  Does this sound to you like it doesn't matter whether a card has a reference or not?  If it did not matter, wouldn't there be more cards like this?  Wouldn't there still be cards printed today without them?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Red on August 23, 2010, 10:08:03 AM
I believe that every card should have a reference. Why? Be cause it's a bible game and to have cards based on the bible but no reference in game is stupid.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on August 23, 2010, 10:08:44 AM
Here is a list of cards that are officially referenceless, and therefore testamentless:

Promos:
Authority of Christ
Water to wine
Brass serpent
Caleb
Chastisement of the Lord
Frog Demons
Joab
John
Joshua (non WC)
King David
King Solomon
Love
Mary's Prophetic Act
Rage
Samson
Goliath (Unless I Sammuel is a book nobody knows about...)

Non promos:
Saul/Paul

And my response to Oh it was a typo on goliath! Well... if we're to look at the exact printing for the other cards, why not Goliath? I Sammuel does not exist.

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FGoliath%2520%28P%29.gif&hash=317304fa4a376e264f15e92cd299e0785310fb48)
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Minister Polarius on August 23, 2010, 10:10:11 AM
They are not testamentless. It's been a long-established rule that testament is based on time period in absence of verse.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on August 23, 2010, 10:11:41 AM
How do you determine a Testament if they have no reference?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Smokey on August 23, 2010, 10:11:55 AM
Here is a list of cards that are officially referenceless, and therefore testamentless:
Promos:
Authority of Christ
Rage

How fitting.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Minister Polarius on August 23, 2010, 10:12:47 AM
Smokey wins the thread. Reference: Chuck Norris. GG.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The M on August 23, 2010, 10:21:18 AM
Bryon said some cards don't have a reference and I take that as don't need a reference.

Why do you take it that way?  To say a card does not have a reference is only a statement of fact.

I think the total number of cards with no reference are less than twenty, and I'm not sure that ANY of those come after somewhere around 2003ish.  Does this sound to you like it doesn't matter whether a card has a reference or not?  If it did not matter, wouldn't there be more cards like this?  Wouldn't there still be cards printed today without them?
antiochus epiphanies 3
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 10:31:52 AM
Do you mean 4?  That card has a reference on it.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The M on August 23, 2010, 10:47:17 AM
josephus is a book of the bible?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Smokey on August 23, 2010, 10:48:35 AM
josephus is a book of the bible?

It has a reference it just isn't biblical.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The M on August 23, 2010, 10:51:17 AM
ohhh... they should make a card where you can search for one card with no or a non-biblical reference.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: crustpope on August 23, 2010, 10:53:51 AM
OK, starting a second thread after the first has been firmly ruled upon is uncalled for.   You arent changing anything you are only stirring the pot.

Second, is it possible that the reference was left off of the card for this very reason? ( or better yet, that Matthew was worded in such a way as to make it impossible for him to reccur AoCP?)

It has been established that the verse in the reg was added only as a refference and does not change the playability of the card in anyway.  Cards are what they are at face value unless they have an erratta or a Play as...this one has neither that is applicable to your issue.  THe card simply does not work that way, and for one I applaud the playttesters for closing that loop.  Use AoC and take your chances that it can be negated, but an infinitley reccurrable CBN battle winner is way OP and EVERYONE here knows it.

So please just let this one drop...or better yet, delete the thread because this is only going to end badly.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Smokey on August 23, 2010, 10:56:17 AM
but an infinitley reccurrable CBN battle winner is way OP and EVERYONE here knows it.

Every other combo that can recur CBN battle winners every turn including AoCp says hi.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The M on August 23, 2010, 10:57:35 AM
OK, starting a second thread after the first has been firmly ruled upon is uncalled for.   You arent changing anything you are only stirring the pot.

Second, is it possible that the reference was left off of the card for this very reason? ( or better yet, that Matthew was worded in such a way as to make it impossible for him to reccur AoCP?)

It has been established that the verse in the reg was added only as a refference and does not change the playability of the card in anyway.  Cards are what they are at face value unless they have an erratta or a Play as...this one has neither that is applicable to your issue.  THe card simply does not work that way, and for one I applaud the playttesters for closing that loop.  Use AoC and take your chances that it can be negated, but an infinitley reccurrable CBN battle winner is way OP and EVERYONE here knows it.

So please just let this one drop...or better yet, delete the thread because this is only going to end badly.
no, you're thinking of....
 :)
really guys. quit the thread. yeah. you heard me. yeah.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: crustpope on August 23, 2010, 10:59:46 AM
but an infinitley reccurrable CBN battle winner is way OP and EVERYONE here knows it.

Every other combo that can recur CBN battle winners every turn including AoCp says hi.

Alright, Im calling you out.  Give me an INFINTELY reccurable CBN battle winner combo.  bonus points if you can do it with AOCP.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: browarod on August 23, 2010, 11:02:25 AM
I'm not clear on what else remains unresolved on the issue or what about the issue causes a problem for the entire game.
All I'm asking is why it was ruled however many years ago that the cards without a printed reference just wouldn't have a reference. Why is disassociating them from the Bible and many other cards in the game better than treating them as having references despite not being printed? That's what is as yet unresolved. If an errata is the only thing you'll accept then consider this a request to consider such. The issue causing a problem for the entire game is new players wondering why there are these cards that don't have references when the game is supposed to be based on the Bible.

OK, starting a second thread after the first has been firmly ruled upon is uncalled for.   You arent changing anything you are only stirring the pot.

Second, is it possible that the reference was left off of the card for this very reason? ( or better yet, that Matthew was worded in such a way as to make it impossible for him to reccur AoCP?)

It has been established that the verse in the reg was added only as a refference and does not change the playability of the card in anyway.  Cards are what they are at face value unless they have an erratta or a Play as...this one has neither that is applicable to your issue.  THe card simply does not work that way, and for one I applaud the playttesters for closing that loop.  Use AoC and take your chances that it can be negated, but an infinitley reccurrable CBN battle winner is way OP and EVERYONE here knows it.

So please just let this one drop...or better yet, delete the thread because this is only going to end badly.
What was uncalled for was the closing of the other thread with a (seemingly) cop out answer and the deletion of other members' posts rather than answering them directly. If asking for a legitimate reason for a decision is "stirring the pot" then I suppose that's what this is.

Second, they could have given the referenceless cards references and then simply worded new cards (like Matthew) differently to prevent such things.

So perhaps an errata should be considered? There were multiple things they could have done to "close the loop" as you say, I'm just trying to get a straight answer as to why they picked this one. "Infinitely recurable" is relative. You do realize how easy it is to get rid of a hero in today's game, right? Christian Martyr, a well-timed Grapes of Wrath, deck discard, hand discard, hero discard/capture/removal/etc. Need I go on?

Honestly, the only reason this would "end badly" is if people that aren't contributing keep posting. Please don't tell me what to do. I want to see this through to its conclusion and your comments are not achieving such. Thanks for posting though :).
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on August 23, 2010, 11:09:51 AM
Alright, Im calling you out.  Give me an INFINTELY reccurable CBN battle winner combo.  bonus points if you can do it with AOCP.

1) Gather elishana.
2) discard moses and elders.
3. Ra elishana, place moses and elders on maharai, band to him, grab aocp from the discard with M&E, band to claudia, band to ET, play AoCP.

My little creation.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 23, 2010, 11:10:17 AM
but an infinitley reccurrable CBN battle winner is way OP and EVERYONE here knows it.

Every other combo that can recur CBN battle winners every turn including AoCp says hi.

Alright, Im calling you out.  Give me an INFINTELY reccurable CBN battle winner combo.  bonus points if you can do it with AOCP.

you really need to talk to lambo.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: crustpope on August 23, 2010, 11:12:15 AM
First of all I read the entire post and I dont know how much clearere the PTB could have been.  AoCP does NOT have a Matthew reference and there fore cannot be reccured.


Second...OR they could have worded matthew in such a way that it specifically EXCLUDES referenceless cards that are already printed...YOu cant un-release a card and if it has a reference (or doesnt) then you have to work around it.

and infinitely reccurable is more likely with all the protection that heros have ( Lay donw your life in the new disciples card) Grapes is only a stall.  Capture can be fixed with IAR, discard can be healed with Brass serpent... not too many evil converts in the game but even that can be fixed by another convert.

There are lots of ways to keep matthew alive and while he is alive, an infinitley reccurable AOCP FOR NO COST, is a bad thing.  IMO it is bad enough that he can reccur AoC, band to thomas and play it CBN.


At MKC and Lambo... yeah, that isnt hard to break up at all....

But I will give you bonus points for the recursion of AoCP.  ;)

I will admit, that is a neat little trick , but is is much easier to disrupt than Mathew simply entering battle.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 23, 2010, 11:14:18 AM
king lemuel/zeal. another infinitely recurrable cbn battle winner.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Bryon on August 23, 2010, 11:14:41 AM
Why should there be a Uriah that isn't warrior class?  Should we add warrior class retroactively to cards that should have it but don't?  Do we add things that are missing to cards?  No, because the game still works without it.

When Eli the Priest was printed in RoA, he was supposed to be teal and gold, but only the gold got printed.  Do we retroactively add the brigade?  Do we add something that is missing from a card?  No, because the game still works without it.

Seeker of the Lost was supposed to have a Luke reference ("seek and save the lost").  Instead, it got the same reference as Soldier of God (an accident based on the old "use the previous card as a template" strategy).  Do we change the Seeker reference to something that is not on the card?  No, because the game still works without it.

There are less than 20 cards that do not have references printed on them.  They are still based on the bible, even if a reference isn't listed.  They still have a brigade and can function in the game.  The game still works without adding those things to the card.

We prefer to have LESS errata in the game, not more.  The errata that is typically added to cards is to fix misspellings, double negatives, and broken, unfun cards.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Smokey on August 23, 2010, 11:16:24 AM
You act like he adds AoCp to hand / battle, and he doesn't.
He puts it in possibly the worst place for a usable enhancement to be.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 11:21:15 AM
All I'm asking is why it was ruled however many years ago that the cards without a printed reference just wouldn't have a reference.

There are a lot of cards with problems very much like that.  Misprints, poor wording, rule changes that affect old wording... sometimes things fall through the cracks and you just have to live with what's already done.  You can request an errata and you may or may not get it, but the point is people were not asking for an errata and being shot down.  They were asking to treat a card as having something that it does not have, just because, and that it is horrible and inconsistent not to do this.  The fact of the matter is that the answers provided were an adequate and supported reason to rule the card as it is now.  Requiring an errata to change the outcome demonstrates that the current outcome is correct as per the current rules.

Neither do I think the entire game is going to break down into chaos just because 99% of the cards have a scripture reference and a handful of promotional cards do not.  People are not going to look at 2,500 cards with a reference, then look at the Samson promo and assume the game does not have biblical underpinnings.  That argument does not make sense to me.

Quote
Second, they could have given the referenceless cards references and then simply worded new cards (like Matthew) differently to prevent such things.

It makes less sense to errata 20 other cards for the sake of wording one slightly differently.  The card does exactly what is intended right now.  If AoCP had such a reference, and the desire was to cut out AoCP, there would have been a different direction taken.  The condition of the Matthew reference is to make the card fit within a theme; that it also happens to exclude AoCP is a convenient way to solve that problem at the same time, not a deliberate dodge.

Also, since there are still five pages of discussion in the locked thread, it also does not make sense to accuse people of deleting posts that don't agree with the ruling.  There are a lot of those posts still in place.  So logically, there had to be another reason for that.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: browarod on August 23, 2010, 11:29:34 AM
Also, since there are still five pages of discussion in the locked thread, it also does not make sense to accuse people of deleting posts that don't agree with the ruling.  There are a lot of those posts still in place.  So logically, there had to be another reason for that.
I never claimed to know why the posts were deleted, I just took note of other people complaining in the Off-Topic section thread that there posts had been deleted rather than answered. If whoever deleted them had a valid reason, then they could/should have said that in the thread so that the people knew why their posts had been deleted.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: crustpope on August 23, 2010, 11:33:24 AM
king lemuel/zeal. another infinitely recurrable cbn battle winner.

Nope, not infinite, you have to sacrifice a card from hand to recurr AoCP.  THis well will eventually run dry.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 11:34:55 AM
Saying "deleted rather than answered" directly implies the reason you believe they were deleted.

I repeat my assertions that the questions posed were answered, and that they are neither inconsistent nor baseless.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Smokey on August 23, 2010, 11:45:29 AM
king lemuel/zeal. another infinitely recurrable cbn battle winner.

Nope, not infinite, you have to sacrifice a card from hand to recurr AoCP.  THis well will eventually run dry.

Gather lemmuel to ET and use philosophy, also Gleaning the Fields lets your recur any good enhancement your opponent is using.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on August 23, 2010, 11:45:56 AM
king lemuel/zeal. another infinitely recurrable cbn battle winner.
Nope, not infinite, you have to sacrifice a card from hand to recurr AoCP.  THis well will eventually run dry.
Gather ET. Search for Philosophy.

EDIT: Instaposted. Gathering ET or Lemuel both work, but it depends if you'd rather clog your hand or play first.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: crustpope on August 23, 2010, 11:54:45 AM
ET would have to be tgathered because you would have to search for philosophy to d/c it when you band to lemeuel.

I am noticing a gathering trend here.  All of these combos require a lot of set up, and they also are very succeptible to multiple counters...which is why they are likely more tolerable than a matthew no cost AocP search/place under deck.

All of these combos so far are succeptible to DD, HHI, and anything that negates/protects against search such as HSR.

But it really doesnt matter because my Strong Demon (di) says "Whatev's" to AoCP.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on August 23, 2010, 11:58:33 AM
Unless of course AoCP is played before strong demon is in battle... not like thats hard to do.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on August 23, 2010, 11:59:30 AM
ET Gathered to Lemmy - Search then Exchange
Lemmy Gathered to ET - Exchange (using what you searched for last turn) then Search (for next turn's exchange)

Setting aside with Gathering isn't 'a lot' of set up. Very few counters are commonly played, how often do you see DD, HHI, etc in a competitive environment? Your biggest problem is winning the battle.

That being said, it really isn't that powerful. Discard is one of the easiest things to counter, and assuming you do the Matthew->Thomas band it will be difficult to get initiative to play boat (not sure. I don't know their abilities off hand).
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Daniel TS RED on August 23, 2010, 12:00:39 PM
Don't you guys think they knew this would be a potential combo?  And that they knew in advance that they were not going to let it work?  Honestly, who wants aocp to be able to be used more than once?  Talk about every1 use'n purple, the game will get boring, superfast.  I understand it's great to voice your opinion about things, but you also need to respect the ones with the authority. 

Daniel

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master_Chi on August 23, 2010, 03:10:36 PM
king lemuel/zeal. another infinitely recurrable cbn battle winner.

Nope, not infinite, you have to sacrifice a card from hand to recurr AoCP.  THis well will eventually run dry.

Gather lemmuel to ET and use philosophy, also Gleaning the Fields lets your recur any good enhancement your opponent is using.

The only thing leaving your hand is Lemuel, who returns to your draw pile.....?


Gleaning = FTW.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 23, 2010, 11:44:12 PM
Also, since there are still five pages of discussion in the locked thread, it also does not make sense to accuse people of deleting posts that don't agree with the ruling.  There are a lot of those posts still in place.  So logically, there had to be another reason for that.
I never claimed to know why the posts were deleted, I just took note of other people complaining in the Off-Topic section thread that there posts had been deleted rather than answered. If whoever deleted them had a valid reason, then they could/should have said that in the thread so that the people knew why their posts had been deleted.
Yes it would have been better to have had some feedback on my post rather than just deleting it like that. It wasnt offencive and i tried to apologize about the whole feeling like being jerked around like a dog on a chain thing too- because it seemed like i offended bryon with that one so i was trying to make myself more clear on what i was trying to say. MKC also made some valid points on how the players arguing thier point were doing it in a logical way that really made sense and were looking for straight answers to straight questions rather that being told they were just misinterpreting the answers given. im over it, but i think it was def mishandled.
oh and +1 browarod
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 23, 2010, 11:58:18 PM
MKCs total contribution to the thread, minus whatever might have been deleted since then, was that the ruling - that a card without a reference has no reference - was horrible, and that if the verse included in the REG was not an errata that it should be removed.  The posters on the thread were informed no fewer than three times that the verse would be removed, and that the entire thing was a simple misunderstanding, and STILL he accused the elders of dealing with him dishonestly ("hogwash", I believe, was the term employed).

My involvement in this redux of the thread has been to determine what exactly people think should have been answered but was not.  So far I haven't seen anything that was not answered in the original thread, so I am still wondering about these legitimate questions that were deleted rather than answered.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 24, 2010, 12:35:59 AM
hogwash flag. i raised it.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 24, 2010, 12:45:31 AM
Yes, thank you, I mentioned your claims of dishonesty already.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Minister Polarius on August 24, 2010, 02:28:04 AM
I'm usually a member of the whining committee, but yeesh, this is like woah. What exactly is being complained about here?

It's a testament to how amazing this set is that the best we can find to whine about is nobody knowing how JP works even after months of playtesting (legitimate, but easily remedied by any solution that isn't "you have to target SoG and NJ still works (in which case the whining would increase to 9001)"), and...some cards not having references? Good job, playtesting team, on turning out a set that shut people up about TGT and left us with not much to complain about.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 24, 2010, 02:47:04 AM
complainers/whiners = real playtesting team
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Minister Polarius on August 24, 2010, 02:50:08 AM
Normally I'd agree. Up to this set, all the whining has been merited, and when it was paid attention to, it made the game a LOT better. But this time around, there's nothing to complain about except for JP (and believe you me, I'm already getting my engines revved up in case they try to say that JP must target SoG and NJ still works), yet there's three whole huge threads of complaining about not much regardless.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 24, 2010, 02:59:17 AM
the set just broke surface...trust me, there will be PLENTY more to complain about. anb is how old again?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 24, 2010, 07:47:34 AM
you know, your something else schaef... Schaef you need to work on your attitude problems as much as anyone else on here too. I know you get alot from these guys-

I'm not sure what attitude problem you're referring to here.  All I did was point out that I didn't see any of the original thread until the string of complaints ABOUT the thread showed up, and so started asking questions to try and sort out what all the fuss is about.  You mentioned MKC as an example of someone trying to be a part of the solution but a cursory examination of the thread shows he asked exactly one question directly related to the issue, immediately had it answered in his favor, had the answer repeated multiple times, and continued to complain.

People keep saying they just had some simple question or another that just wanted a straight answer, but they got deleted by persons unknown for reasons unclear.  I'm trying to find out what those questions are so that people can get what they came for and move on.  Without that, I can't do anything at all to help you; I can't provide an answer, or an idea as to why a post might have been deleted, albeit still a guess unless the moderating party speaks up.  So if people still have burning questions, then let's deal with them and put the matter to rest.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 24, 2010, 09:29:37 AM
I understand the reasoning behind the reference thing, and ill get over having my post deleted. Thanks for trying to help solve any issues sir (Schaef).
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Red on August 24, 2010, 09:46:35 AM
you know, your something else schaef. i guess we all just mishandled the whole the thing, huh. Hey, no hard feelings to any of you guys though, k. Im a pretty laid back guy and anyone who's ever met me can tell ya that. So if i offended anyone, please forgive me. Schaef you need to work on your attitude problems as much as anyone else on here too. I know you get alot from these guys-
He's laid back. And I can live with a referenceless aocp I guess.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The M on August 24, 2010, 09:55:00 AM
everybody count to 10 and take deep breaths...
think happy thoughts... :sleepy:
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 24, 2010, 10:30:23 AM
Happy thoughts make me angry
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Professoralstad on August 24, 2010, 10:40:24 AM
Happy thoughts make me angry

That explains so much. Do you want to talk about it Schaef? We're all here for you.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 24, 2010, 10:56:30 AM
Being here for me makes me angry.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Daniel TS RED on August 24, 2010, 02:04:55 PM
Being here for me makes me angry.

haha, that's awesome.

Daniel

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 24, 2010, 02:07:03 PM
Being awesome makes me angry.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: crustpope on August 24, 2010, 02:42:14 PM
I know how to cheer Schaef Up!  Lets talk about the awesomness of board games!
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 24, 2010, 03:13:40 PM
Monopoly makes me angry.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: crustpope on August 24, 2010, 03:18:48 PM
Monopoly makes me angry.

Monopoly makes me angry too. I dont consider Monopoly a board game.  Board games for me begin with Axis and allies and move up in complexity from there.  Everything below that is a BoredGame
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 24, 2010, 03:26:40 PM
Milking every ounce I can out of a single running gag makes me angry.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 24, 2010, 03:29:16 PM
Monopoly makes me angry.

Monopoly makes me angry too. I dont consider Monopoly a board game.  Board games for me begin with Axis and allies and move up in complexity from there.  Everything below that is a BoredGame

monopoly destroys families.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Warrior on August 24, 2010, 06:05:37 PM
everybody count to 10 and take deep breaths...
think happy thoughts... :sleepy:
dude like 95% of ur post r spam stop spamming!!
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: TheHobbit13 on August 24, 2010, 06:36:18 PM
There is nothing inherently wrong with spamming. Yes it is annoying and yes it is needless, but at least the person got some joy out of it. Fwiw I thought it was kinda funny. Also I think you should cut the M some slack, considering the fact that when you were first on the boards you spammed a lot.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master_Chi on August 24, 2010, 06:47:31 PM
Fwiw I thought it was kinda funny. Also I think you should cut the M some slack, considering the fact that when you were first on the boards you spammed a lot.

FWIW?

And doesn't everyone spam as a nubzorz?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: TheHobbit13 on August 24, 2010, 06:48:47 PM
FWIW= For what it's worth
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: soul seeker on August 25, 2010, 11:32:56 AM
And doesn't everyone spam as a nubzorz?

No, not everyone.  Check my history.....no spam.....ever. Every one of my posts contribute even though I'm still a noob.*




*Although formally with a medal but somehow added a trophy.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master_Chi on August 26, 2010, 09:23:53 AM
And doesn't everyone spam as a nubzorz?

No, not everyone.  Check my history.....no spam.....ever. Every one of my posts contribute even though I'm still a noob.*




*Although formally with a medal but somehow added a trophy.

I challenge you to a match of QUICKSCOPING in Modern Warfare 2.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Mr.Hiatus on August 26, 2010, 10:45:26 AM
Quote
I mean no disrespect, and I apologize if anything I've said has come across that way
You quoted one of the most respectful, nicest, generous player in the game and continued to bash his posts. I do not think it is fair, or right to quote someone, write a paragraph after each quote that includes nothing positive, then say I mean no disrespect. C'mon on man. Brian is right, it is not a big deal, I think this whole thing got blown out of proportion, and that this set is a great one. Look at how many good things came out of the set and stop complaining that AoCp doesn't say Matthew on the bottom. You can write it in sharpie for all I care, but constantly arguing and trying to bring up "valid" points as to why it should work is obviously not helping. I think everyone who is saying it should, and trust me I see where you are coming from, but I think they all should let it go. Obviously the PTB are not going to have it, and Matthew will not recur AoCp, so stop trying to argue it.
I mean no disrespect, and I apologize if anything I've said has come across that way.  ;)
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 26, 2010, 10:56:58 AM
I think he was speaking out of frustration, and not from the brand of ill intent that warrants a response any harsher than my reply.  Plus this post is from like two or three days ago AND I believe he has removed it himself since then.

The best way to let something go is not to go back and drudge it up a few days later.  I think at this point everyone is at a point where they're content to just leave it be and move on.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 26, 2010, 04:37:06 PM
I think if anything, these post have helped us to discover the strength (and weakness) of cards with no reference on them. Something I havent really ever considered before. I hope not to see cards with references on them in the future for the sake as Red has stated that this is a biblical game and should point to the ultimate goal of it's source.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 26, 2010, 05:09:34 PM
Given that I don't think there have been any such cards printed in the last six or seven years, you can probably take that to the bank.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master KChief on August 26, 2010, 06:24:29 PM
I challenge you to a match of QUICKSCOPING in Modern Warfare 2.

and miss 90% of the time?
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 26, 2010, 06:26:23 PM
delete my significant post but leave stuff like this up? i dont get it.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Master_Chi on August 26, 2010, 06:31:28 PM
I challenge you to a match of QUICKSCOPING in Modern Warfare 2.

and miss 90% of the time?

Heck no, my quokscopping skillz are 1006. Upside down.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: galadgawyn on August 31, 2010, 03:30:35 PM
I know I'm late to the party here but I'll give a shot at answering Schaef's question about what has gone unanswered.  It has been said here that those cards have no references and never have had them.  That may be what they want but that comes across as a rule change.  In the Reg update thread under Official Rules, it says

[quoteA few cards do not have verses printed on the text. The following texts have been given to them and will appear in the REG card descriptions:

•Mary's Prophetic Act - John 12:3
•A Child is Born - Luke 2:7
•Water to Wine - John 2:9
•Saul/Paul (as Saul) - Acts 8:3
•Saul/Paul (as Paul) - Acts 13:9
•King Solomon - I Kings 4:1][/quote] 
That certainly sounds like the cards now have official references.
I think there is another line about changing the verse on Seeker of the Lost.

Now I know they said that the verses were just suggestions, not errata and that they will change the Reg (someday) anyway but I hope you can see how this might be misleading.  Everything else I can find in that thread is not a suggestion but an official rule (though some of them have since been officialy changed).  I even thought I remembered some past thread about wanting to correct the past mistakes and have every card have an official reference.  So when I read this thread it came across as people that were not aware of the past ruling assuming that the cards don't have references and they would get rid of any indication otherwise.  So I think people might be frustrated that the rules seem to arbitrarily and randomly change.  It makes it difficult to enjoy working on complex strategies throughout the year if there is no assurance that your effort will matter. 

P.S.  if it really is considered too broken to allow Matthew to recur AoCP then they could simply change the AoCP reference to non-Matthew.  I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of good references for that card.  There are other cards that have different references on different versions.

P.S.S. you could also make a distinction between having a reference and having a reference printed on the card.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: Smokey on August 31, 2010, 03:59:53 PM
Now I know they said that the verses were just suggestions, not errata and that they will change the Reg (someday) anyway but I hope you can see how this might be misleading.  Everything else I can find in that thread is not a suggestion but an official rule (though some of them have since been officialy changed).  I even thought I remembered some past thread about wanting to correct the past mistakes and have every card have an official reference.  So when I read this thread it came across as people that were not aware of the past ruling assuming that the cards don't have references and they would get rid of any indication otherwise.  So I think people might be frustrated that the rules seem to arbitrarily and randomly change.  It makes it difficult to enjoy working on complex strategies throughout the year if there is no assurance that your effort will matter. 

P.S.  if it really is considered too broken to allow Matthew to recur AoCP then they could simply change the AoCP reference to non-Matthew.  I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of good references for that card.  There are other cards that have different references on different versions.

P.S.S. you could also make a distinction between having a reference and having a reference printed on the card.

I think at this point it's mostly about the responces people had to this ruling, no one simply asked that it be made an errotta but they complained that it wasn't currently. It's also that the elders do not want to ask Rob to make cards "more playable" as long as they work to some extent. The verses will also be removed in the new REG.

@ P.S. I don't think it's broken, it prevents time-outs and isn't easy to search for when it's on the bottom.

@P.S.S. I think that's a good idea for someone with the power to do so to do.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Schaef on August 31, 2010, 07:05:12 PM
Quote
That certainly sounds like the cards now have official references.

Yes, but it has already been made clear that this is not the case, and it has even been said that they will be stricken from the REG if clarity on this point is more important than the educational inclusion of a reference.  It has also been said that these are not - ARE NOT - errata for the cards.

So no, this is NOT a question that has gone unanswered on this thread.  You just don't seem to care for the nature and timing of the answer.
Title: Re: Matthew Vs AoCP 2
Post by: The Warrior on August 31, 2010, 07:19:22 PM
In B4 the Loche ness monster

(this Lock has been broght to u by the meaningless refrence crew! thank you! (NOT Really  >:( ))
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