Author Topic: Magic Charms (Read 6858 times)

juhnkect · « **on:** August 19, 2009, 04:42:58 PM »

Magic Charms S/A Protect your magicians from capture and conversion. You may discard this card from your magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes. [May be activated on your Magician.]

Raider's Camp S/A If your human evil character captures a hero place it here...

If Magic Charms is activated on my magician, and I use the SA do the captured heroes go to RC?

sk · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2009, 05:43:03 PM »

No, as the artifact is capturing, not the character. See: Unholy Writ.

juhnkect · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2009, 06:52:37 PM »

Quote from: sk on August 19, 2009, 05:43:03 PM

No, as the artifact is capturing, not the character. See: Unholy Writ.

well, I realize it is similar to unholy writ... but it is a little different because it is placed on a specific hero.

So If I block with the magician that has MC activated on it, ...still no RC?

sk · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2009, 07:13:56 PM »

Still no RC. It doesn't matter where the artifact is activated, just that the artifact does the capture.

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2009, 07:37:40 PM »

The Artifact does the capturing, not the Evil Character.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:27:59 PM »

How is this different than enhancements capturing heroes? Why do they work for RC when used on EC's but artifacts don't?

Isildur · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:33:49 PM »

An Artifact works the same as if a Fort Captures a hero would it go to RC? no. This is because an outisde source did the capturing not the character who had to have an enhancement placed on him. And you might say that since Magic charms is activated on the EC then why wont it work? The place ability works the same as Z Temple its just anouther place to put the artifact.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:38:11 PM »

I didn't understand those last couple sentences, but it didn't seem to answer my question: in what way is this different than enhancements?

Smokey · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:39:19 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 19, 2009, 08:38:11 PM

I didn't understand those last couple sentences, but it didn't seem to answer my question: in what way is this different than enhancements?

It's an artifact, not an enhancement. There is the difference.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:40:49 PM »

Raiders' Camp says, "If your human Evil Character captures a Hero..."

Isildur · « **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:44:50 PM »

By place I ment that its anouther spot to activate the artifact. "You may discard this card from your magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes." Its played just the same as Unholy Writ just some where else when its activated.

Smokey · « **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:50:13 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 19, 2009, 08:40:49 PM

Raiders' Camp says, "If your human Evil Character captures a Hero..."

Enhancements require ECs to activate, artifacts don't.

TimMierz · « **Reply #12 on:** August 19, 2009, 09:29:01 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on August 19, 2009, 08:50:13 PM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 19, 2009, 08:40:49 PM
Raiders' Camp says, "If your human Evil Character captures a Hero..."

Enhancements require ECs to activate, artifacts don't.

Magic Charms requires an EC to use its capture.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #13 on:** August 19, 2009, 09:44:07 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on August 19, 2009, 09:29:01 PM

Quote from: Smokey on August 19, 2009, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 19, 2009, 08:40:49 PM
Raiders' Camp says, "If your human Evil Character captures a Hero..."

Enhancements require ECs to activate, artifacts don't.

Magic Charms requires an EC to use its capture.

Wrong - It gives the option to have it sit on a Magician, You don't have to have it on an Evil Character (The Magi).

Arch Angel · « **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2009, 09:46:19 PM »

Quote from: juhnkect on August 19, 2009, 04:42:58 PM

Magic Charms S/A Protect your magicians from capture and conversion. You may discard this card from your magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes. [May be activated on your Magician.]

Yes, it has to be discarded from the Magician to capture.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #15 on:** August 19, 2009, 09:47:23 PM »

Right, I understand that but I'm saying you don't have to place it on an Evil Magician as there are Good Magicians (well good magician.)

Master KChief · « **Reply #16 on:** August 19, 2009, 10:09:28 PM »

the magi are magicians?

bonus.

juhnkect · « **Reply #17 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:39:08 AM »

So, because Magic Charms capture ability is restricted to activation on a magician (just like a capture ability on an EE needs an EC)... Then it is the magician doing the capture.. so it would go to RC? correct?

could we get an official ruling on this?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:54:25 AM »

I think that we are entering new territory with this card.

I agree that since the card must be on an EC and used in battle (just like EEs) to capture someone, that the EC is actually doing the capture and thus the people captured would go to Raiders Camp.

redemption99 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:39:17 AM »

The artifact can be activated on your artifact pile like normal, it is not restricted to activating on a magician(even though the capture part would not work if activated in your artifact pile). Also, even though the artifact could be placed on a magician it is still the artifact, not the character, which does the capturing which means it does not go into raiders camp.

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:53:09 AM »

can you move it from your artifact pile to a magician? Or does it have to stay wherever you originally played it?

redemption99 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 20, 2009, 08:54:32 AM »

You can move it to a magician at anytime you would normally activate an artifact since it's identifier says 'may be activated on a magician'.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #22 on:** August 20, 2009, 09:40:52 AM »

Quote from: redemption99 on August 20, 2009, 08:39:17 AM

Also, even though the artifact could be placed on a magician it is still the artifact, not the character, which does the capturing which means it does not go into raiders camp.

I'll ask again, how is this different than enhancements?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2009, 09:50:29 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 20, 2009, 09:40:52 AM

I'll ask again, how is this different than enhancements?

I agree. It is not the characters SA that usually captures an opponent, it is an enhancement that is activated on that character. This is simply an artifact that is activated on that character.

The artifact by itself (in the artifact pile) can't capture. It needs a character in battle to do it. Just like an enhancement.

crustpope · « **Reply #24 on:** August 20, 2009, 11:27:17 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on August 20, 2009, 09:50:29 AM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 20, 2009, 09:40:52 AM
I'll ask again, how is this different than enhancements?
I agree. It is not the characters SA that usually captures an opponent, it is an enhancement that is activated on that character. This is simply an artifact that is activated on that character.

The artifact by itself (in the artifact pile) can't capture. It needs a character in battle to do it. Just like an enhancement.

I agree with Prof. By the definition that you all are using the only characters that could capture heroes are Egyptian Warden and Idolaters because their captures are in thier own SA's. Now we have been playing that enhancements capture heroes as well and that they work for Raiders camp because they are activated on and EC. Magic charms HAS to be on a magician for it to work. If it is on an Evil EC (not the Magi) then it should work for Raiders Camp because the "magic Charms" that the "Magician" was wearing would help the Evil Magician to capture heros.

Plain and simple I dont see how this can be argued any way else. The capture REQUIRES a Character and Raiders Camp Requires a human Evil Character. It works.

sk · « **Reply #25 on:** August 20, 2009, 12:26:23 PM »

REG > Glossary > Capture:
"Capture takes place when one card takes another card prisoner to a Land of Bondage or to a fortress."

Enhancements require the character to do the capturing. The character is the "one card" actually capturing another card.
Artifacts, however, capture on their own. The artifact, not the character it is on, is the "one card" doing the capturing.

Smokey · « **Reply #26 on:** August 20, 2009, 12:48:38 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on August 20, 2009, 07:54:25 AM

I think that we are entering new territory with this card.

I agree that since the card must be on an EC and used in battle (just like EEs) to capture someone, that the EC is actually doing the capture and thus the people captured would go to Raiders Camp.

It has to be used during battle, the EC doesn't have to be in battle. No EE currently printed works like that.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #27 on:** August 20, 2009, 01:33:37 PM »

They could, couldn't they? Magic Charms could almost just as easily have been a TC enhancement, couldn't it?

Isildur · « **Reply #28 on:** August 20, 2009, 01:37:02 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 20, 2009, 01:33:37 PM

They could, couldn't they? Magic Charms could almost just as easily have been a TC enhancement, couldn't it?

What?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #29 on:** August 20, 2009, 01:56:46 PM »

They could have made Magic Charms a Territory Class enhancement just as easily as an artifact and it would have been almost exactly the same, in which case it would have worked with RC, right? The fact that no EE currently printed works like that is irrelevant.

crustpope · « **Reply #30 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:01:48 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on August 20, 2009, 12:48:38 PM

It has to be used during battle, the EC doesn't have to be in battle. No EE currently printed works like that.

AS bubbly boy said, This is irrelevant. Everything new works differently than the stuff before it all the time.

Quote from: sk on August 20, 2009, 12:26:23 PM

REG > Glossary > Capture:
"Capture takes place when one card takes another card prisoner to a Land of Bondage or to a fortress."

Enhancements require the character to do the capturing. The character is the "one card" actually capturing another card.
Artifacts, however, capture on their own. The artifact, not the character it is on, is the "one card" doing the capturing.

Except the artifact CANNOT capture (on its own or anyother way) UNLESS it is placed on a MAGICIAN! ANd Evil enhancemetnt cannot capture a hero UNLESS it is played on and EVIL CHARACTER. I say if it is used by a HUMAN EVIL MAGICIAN, that it fulfills the requirements for Raiders camp. How is this difficult to understand?

Isildur · « **Reply #31 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:04:30 PM »

It does not say "if used" it says "IF ACTIVATED" which is far different then "if used".

crustpope · « **Reply #32 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:10:39 PM »

Magic Charms S/A Protect your magicians from capture and conversion. You may discard this card from your magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes. [May be activated on your Magician.]

True, but it still needs a magician in order to capture. This card cannot capture unless it is activated ON a Magician in the same way that an enancement cannot capture unless it is activated on a Character. You say tomato I say Tomato.

Your point is that since it is ACTIVATED and not PLAYED then it cannot be eligible for Raiders camp, but every placed enhancement works in a similar fashion and no one seems to mind.

I say because the two are linked that the EC has at least a hand in the capturing and therefore makes the capture eligible for Raiders camp.

sk · « **Reply #33 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:15:58 PM »

I agree with Isildur, activated =/= played.

It doesn't matter that it has to be on the character. The abilities on enhancements are carried out by the character, as enhancements really just 'enhance' the character. An artifact works independently of the character.

Go into Captivity requires that an EC be in battle to work. Just because an EC is in battle doesn't mean that the character is doing the capturing, it is still the artifact.

Suppose an artifact were to say, "If activated in Solomon's Temple, all heroes gain 2/2." We wouldn't credit Solomon's Temple with adding 2/2, it is the artifact that is doing the increase. It simply requires that it be activated in Solomon's Temple to work.

Quote

You say tomato I say Tomato.

That saying doesn't work online.

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:22:07 PM »

The Artifact, and its special ability, are responsible for the capture.

An Enhancement must be played on a character in order to activate. When a character uses an Enhancement, that is considered an action by that character. Artifacts, and in fact all other card types, do not have the same requirement, and characters do not "use" Artifacts.

The Artifact can have its location changed and then can be discarded from that location as a condition for capture. That does not mean the magician himself is capturing. If I discard Unholy Writ to capture a Hero, the Artifact pile is not capturing, the Artifact itself is.

Master KChief · « **Reply #35 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:33:22 PM »

awesome. i was hoping this ruling would turn out this way. if it was the reverse, then magi + magic charms wouldnt work.

Isildur · « **Reply #36 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:43:37 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 20, 2009, 02:33:22 PM

awesome. i was hoping this ruling would turn out this way. if it was the reverse, then magi + magic charms wouldnt work.

lol wow

LukeSnyder · « **Reply #37 on:** August 20, 2009, 02:57:36 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 20, 2009, 02:33:22 PM

awesome. i was hoping this ruling would turn out this way. if it was the reverse, then magi + magic charms wouldnt work.

That is a combo that will be in one of my decks very soon. Brutal

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #38 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:04:48 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on August 20, 2009, 02:33:22 PM

awesome. i was hoping this ruling would turn out this way. if it was the reverse, then magi + magic charms wouldnt work.

That is another good reason why the capture should be considered dependent on the EC. If they are viewed independently, then we will have a hero (The Magi) going into battle and targeting other heroes (capturing 2 of them), which goes against the idea of the game. People will say that it's OK because "it's the artifact that is capturing".

I continue to believe that this is simply a new situation that works most similarly to a placed capture EE. The EC does the capturing, Raider's Camp works, and "The Magi" can't use it because it also targets heroes.

Master KChief · « **Reply #39 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:07:04 PM »

im sure lambo has already created some convoluted combo with magi/magic charms to get an automatic lost soul

The Guardian · « **Reply #40 on:** August 20, 2009, 05:35:39 PM »

w/ Schaef

The artifact is doing the capturing. The fact that it is discarded from a Magician is simply a condition for the capture to work. Characters use enhancements; artifacts trigger/can be used by the player when the conditions are met, but currently they are not used by characters. If there was a Magician with the SA: "Discard Magic Charms to capture two human Heroes" then they would go to Raider's Camp.

crustpope · « **Reply #41 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:12:23 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 20, 2009, 02:22:07 PM

If I discard Unholy Writ to capture a Hero, the Artifact pile is not capturing, the Artifact itself is.

This is not a good example of what we are talking about. UW has zero interatcion with any Evil Character whatsoever.

Quote from: sk on August 20, 2009, 02:15:58 PM

Go into Captivity requires that an EC be in battle to work. Just because an EC is in battle doesn't mean that the character is doing the capturing, it is still the artifact.

This is a better example of what we are talking about but the EC is just a trigger here and the artifact is not on the EC in battle.

Quote from: sk on August 20, 2009, 02:15:58 PM

An artifact works independently of the character.

Obviously not, because THIS one must be used by an EC in battle in order to capture. It doesnt work independantly at all.

The Guardian · « **Reply #42 on:** August 21, 2009, 12:47:54 AM »

Quote

Obviously not, because THIS one must be used by an EC in battle in order to capture.

The EC is not using the Artifact, the Artifact is using (in a way) the EC and the artifact is the card doing the capturing.

crustpope · « **Reply #43 on:** August 21, 2009, 02:33:59 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on August 21, 2009, 12:47:54 AM

Quote
Obviously not, because THIS one must be used by an EC in battle in order to capture.
The EC is not using the Artifact, the Artifact is using (in a way) the EC and the artifact is the card doing the capturing.

Eh, Well I see it differently. First of all Magic Charms are something a Magician would Use (not the other way around)

Second of all, It has to be activated ON an EC in order to work as a capture.

Third it has to be used while a magician is in battle.

True, a different magician can be in battle and an EC in territory could be holding magic Charms and it can still work, but this is very tricky territory and these kinds of questions and confusing SA combos make it difficult to explain to a new player.

I thinkthere should be some kind of rule that learly deliniates that Artifact SA's take preeminence even when they are connected to heros/EC's

Smokey · « **Reply #44 on:** August 21, 2009, 02:44:56 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on August 21, 2009, 02:33:59 AM

Quote from: The Guardian on August 21, 2009, 12:47:54 AM
Quote
Obviously not, because THIS one must be used by an EC in battle in order to capture.
The EC is not using the Artifact, the Artifact is using (in a way) the EC and the artifact is the card doing the capturing.

Eh, Well I see it differently. First of all Magic Charms are something a Magician would Use (not the other way around)

Second of all, It has to be activated ON an EC in order to work as a capture.

Third it has to be used while a magician is in battle.

True, a different magician can be in battle and an EC in territory could be holding magic Charms and it can still work, but this is very tricky territory and these kinds of questions and confusing SA combos make it difficult to explain to a new player.

I thinkthere should be some kind of rule that learly deliniates that Artifact SA's take preeminence even when they are connected to heros/EC's

Your third point is invalid, no magician has to be in battle.
Secondly, The only reason it has to be on a magician is that people don't have another unholy writ for every deck.
Thirdly, I doubt many new players are going to start out playing a magician defense.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #45 on:** August 21, 2009, 06:57:54 AM »

Quote from: Smokey on August 21, 2009, 02:44:56 AM

Thirdly, I doubt many new players are going to start out playing a magician defense.

Maybe not, but a lot of new players may be splashing Magi+Magic Charms. And that goes against the idea of the game.

The Schaef · « **Reply #46 on:** August 21, 2009, 07:04:19 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on August 21, 2009, 12:12:23 AM

Obviously not, because THIS one must be used by an EC in battle in order to capture.

No it does not. It only needs to be placed in a certain area, having already been activated, and then discarded at the time specified on the Artifact. You talk about UW having zero interation with the EC... THIS card has zero interaction with the EC. The EC doesn't DO anything.

Quote

True, a different magician can be in battle and an EC in territory could be holding magic Charms and it can still work, but this is very tricky territory and these kinds of questions and confusing SA combos make it difficult to explain to a new player.

It becomes a lot easier to explain when the idea of an EC "using" an Artifact is removed from the equation. I mean, this whole qualifying paragraph pretty much wipes out everything you said before about the EC "using" the Artifact, because clearly the Artifact works without relying on the EC doing anything in particular.

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Author Topic: Magic Charms (Read 6858 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef