Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Red Warrior on January 11, 2012, 01:23:27 AM
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Does answered prayer have a numerical value in the discard pile?
Can Lost Coin Found search your discard pile for Answered Prayer?
Lost Coin Found (Ap)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: 2 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may search discard pile for any good enhancement worth 3/3 or less.
Answered Prayer (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Selected Hero (until discarded) gains 7 ability points to be distributed as holder chooses. Distribution must be announced when played.
*Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Identifiers: OT, Selected Hero (until discarded) gains 7 ability points to be distributed as holder chooses. Distribution must be announced when played. • Verse: I Kings 8:28 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)
*PS - I had always ruled that the "until discarded" was a SA, and that the rest of the ability was an explanation text (now called identifier) for */*, which could not be negated. Is the whole thing really supposed to be an Identifier now?
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I would argue that no, LCF cannot get AP out of the draw pile. Once the numbers on AP are announced, because they're an identifier, they stick once played, and do not reset for the remainder of the game. That's just me though.
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What if it was discarded from deck or hand, without being played? Then it has no defined value. I would say that "undefined" isn't 3/3 or less, though, and could not be retrieved.
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What if it was discarded from deck or hand, without being played? Then it has no defined value. I would say that "undefined" isn't 3/3 or less, though, and could not be retrieved.
I would tend to agree with Tim here.
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If that's the case, then the card is always undefined, because even its abilifier doesn't set its own numbers equal to anything, it just gives the hero 7 ability points. I would think it could just be ruled to be 0/0 since it doesn't have printed numbers and never gets numbers, but as it stands I agree that it is undefined and, thus, not 3/3 or less.
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Yeah I could go either way with this...
Identifiers typically don't require a "play" action to be defined (Rabshekah is an Assyrian whether in deck or territory).
But there is really no practical way to detach Answered Prayer/Testimony's value from an "play" dynamic.
While we're at this issue... (oh the fun things that come up with a beginners group)...
Does Jethro's Wisdom actually have the value of * while in deck? Can Micah search discard pile for Jethro's Wisdom?
Micah (RA)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 8 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search discard pile for X O.T. green Enhancements with toughness */4 or less and shuffle into deck. • Play As: Search discard pile for X O.T. green Enhancements with toughness */4 or less and shuffle [return] into deck. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Prophet, X = the number of evil brigades opponent has in play.
Jethro's Wisdom (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 2 / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Toughness is equal to the combined toughness of all O.T. male human Heroes in holder's territory. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier) •
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I would say no for the reason that Tim explained earlier. "Undefined" is not */4 or less.
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But Jethro's Wisdom IS defined here, unlike Answered Prayer/The Testimony which is only defined "when played". I would say Micah can take Jethro's Wisdom only when the combined toughness of OT male human Heroes in territory is 4 or less. Not that you'd want to take Jethro's Wisdom anyways, but you could.
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Do Answered Prayer and The Testimony have numbers? Rather, is there a possible way for the numbers to even be defined? It seems to me like its SA is what's increasing the Hero, and it never actually gains abilities.
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Along with what Pol is saying...
Wouldn't the most game-logical correction would be to ignore the */*, remove the errata, and treat the "identifier" as a special ability? This would make the card the same as any other increase card (Faith as Children).
That would affect which cards though?
Testimony and Answered Prayer for certain... not to murky the waters too much, but what about God's Provision?
God's Provision
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero gains (*/*) to bring Hero to equal abilities (*/*) with Evil Character at this point in the battle. Hero gains first strike ability.
• Errata: (Treat the first sentence of the special ability as an identifier.) • Play As: Hero gains first strike ability. • Identifiers: NT, Hero gains (*/*) to bring Hero to equal abilities (*/*) with Evil Character at this point in the battle. •
Are the numbers given to the hero or the enhancement?
If this card is discarded (but not negated) by an evil card, do the numbers disappear with the enhancement?
If so, then the */* is important.
If not, then 1) the enhancement has no actual strength/toughness value, 2) there is no purpose for the */*, and 3) it should be treated as a gain ability.
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Well put, Red Warrior. However:
Are the numbers given to the hero or the enhancement?
If this card is discarded (but not negated) by an evil card, do the numbers disappear with the enhancement?
If so, then the */* is important.
If not, then 1) the enhancement has no actual strength/toughness value, 2) there is no purpose for the */*, and 3) it should be treated as a gain ability.
With God's Provision, one could almost argue that the hero gains the numbers, but God's Provision is worth them too.
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* * * BUMP * * *
I want to know how to deal with these cards before Saturday. As a leader of a "noob" crew, Answered Prayer and Testimony are actually in decks, and I need to know what happens the first time my white player tries to play Answered Prayer in the same battle as Blessings
--How much of the ability works in FBTN? just the gain (identifier)? all of it(remains until discarded)?.
--Does the enhancement have value (*/*) in-and-of itself (important if discarded) or does all the gain go to the character? Both???
--If the */* on the enhancement has no value, can Lost Coin found return it to play?
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I may be wrong, but no matter how the 7 points are distributed for AP, once it's discarded those points are whipped from AP, as it would revert to face value.
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You are correct Praeceps,
but the issue at hand (that hasn't been answered in the MONTH this post has been here) lies in this question: what IS face value? :o 0/0 or undefined/undefined?
I hate to make rulings that mess with the "natural" understanding of a card, but the reality is that the */* is misleading as the numbers are a gained ability given to the character. As Pol said earlier, it seems as if the GE itself never gains numbers.
But as Kittens said (regarding God's Provisions)... the enhancement may also be considered "worth" the numbers it supplies.
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I would think that the difference here is as simple as the difference between * and x. I would think that unless the Enhancement's ability states that it gains numbers, its */* would be undefined/undefined. But if the ability states that the card becomes worth something, like Jethro's Wisdom that it, and the newer cards written x/x be treated as 0/0 as the increase would apply to them as well.
Jethro's Wisdom (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 2 / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Toughness is equal to the combined toughness of all O.T. male human Heroes in holder's territory. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier) • Identifiers: OT, Spiritual Gift, Toughness is equal to the combined toughness of all O.T. male human Heroes in holder's territory. • Verse: Exodus 18:20-21 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Common)
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I was under the impression that */* or X/X means 0/0 unless defined by an identifier. The problem with ruling with these cards is it can cause other cards that give increases or decreases numbers or make them undefined. I always treated those Enhancements as 0/0 (except when it's defined like w/ Heavy Taxes of AwaSN) The next question would be then are other Enhancements w/o numbers (I.e. The Fourth Seal) treated as 'undefined' as well?
My personal solution is that the Enhancement is worth 0/0, but I don't get the thing of the effect being an Identifer. I'd say it's a gain ability, you gain (*\* or X\X) the Enhancement has no value.