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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on June 09, 2010, 03:53:22 PM
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i block with KTP3 and play grapes on him, does it count as a sucessful block?
KTP3= If block is successful, holder may capture an O.T. human Hero in a territory.
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aslo, if you block with KTP3 and use SoG/NJ to rescue the only LS's availiable to rescue, does that count as a sucessful block?
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1. Pretty sure yes.
2. Only if he wins the resulting battle challenge.
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I would have to agree yes because your opponent would not rescue the lost soul while he was blocking
and I would also have to agree that it is only if you succeed in the following battle challenge
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but KTP3's ability says if block is sucessful, not if he wins the battle challenge. winning a battle challenge isn't the same thing as blocking sucessfully. winning the battle challenge doesn't ahve anything to do with his ability, i'm mostly just wondering if just the RA switching to a BC counts as a sucessful block or if since it is now a battle challenge his ability doesn't apply
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So just to be clear, successfully blocking does not require the blocking character to be left alive, but defeating your opponent does, right?
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I think so? These rulings get very confusing.
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I'm going to be the D.A. and say "No!"
My rationale feeds off what some Elders have said about Grapes, that it does not start a new Battle Phase. Therefore, the original "block" is unresolved until after the second battle completes; only then will the blocking player know whether the original block was successful.
That was fun. Ask me another question, so I can come up with another creatively wrong answer.
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OOh! OOh! I call next!
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I think the question that needs to be answered is what is considered a "successful" block?
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This is all I can find in the REG about this:
Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.
I know this question has been asked a lot before, and I would like to see the answer written down somewhere official for future reference.
So, here are some terms we need a clear definition/Differentiation on:
Rescue Attempt Fails:
Rescue Attempt is Successful:
Block Fails:
Block is Successful:
Hero is Defeated:
Evil Character is Defeated:
These may all sound simple, but I think there's a little bit of a difference between each one. If we can get these defined clearly and recorded somewhere, that'd help a lot.
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Hey,
i block with KTP3 and play grapes on him, does it count as a sucessful block?
Yes. Mutual destruction by mutual removal constitutes a successful block.
if you block with KTP3 and use SoG/NJ to rescue the only LS's availiable to rescue, does that count as a sucessful block?
Assuming there are still no lost souls available when the battle ends, yes that counts as a successful block. There was a rescue attempt, it was unsuccessful, so there was a successful block. Ironically if the attacker is Joshua, and Joshua wins the ensuing battle challenge, you can have a successful block for the evil character and a successful battle challenge for the hero in the same battle. (Yay for strangeness)
successfully blocking does not require the blocking character to be left alive, but defeating your opponent does, right?
Neither successfully blocking or defeating your opponent requires your character to survive.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Ironically if the attacker is Joshua, and Joshua wins the ensuing battle challenge, you can have a successful block for the evil character and a successful battle challenge for the hero in the same battle. (Yay for strangeness)
And this is why I want that complete list of those terms written out, so we know which ones apply when, or if several apply at the same time.
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Hey,
So, here are some terms we need a clear definition/Differentiation on:
Rescue Attempt Fails:
Rescue Attempt is Successful:
Block Fails:
Block is Successful:
Hero is Defeated:
Evil Character is Defeated:
These may all sound simple, but I think there's a little bit of a difference between each one. If we can get these defined clearly and recorded somewhere, that'd help a lot.
I totally have the answer these questions! (I think)...
Battle Outcome:
Battle outcome has two dimensions: who wins and what kind of battle it is.
Determining the winner:
In every battle one side wins and one side loses. So if the attacker wins the defender loses, and if the defender wins the attacker loses. At battle resolution, the winner is determined as follows:
The attacker wins if any of the following are true:
- the battle is in the "hero winning" state
- the battle is in the "mutual destruction" state
- there are no evil characters in battle and a hero is in battle
The defender wins if any of the following are true:
- the battle is in the "evil character winning" state
- the battle is in the "stalemate" state
- there are no heroes in battle
Determining the kind of battle:
If there was at no point during battle a rescuable lost soul then there is a battle challenge but no rescue attempt. If there is a rescuable lost soul at the beginning of battle resolution then there is a rescue attempt but no battle challenge. If there was a rescuable lost soul at some point during battle but there is no rescueable lost soul at the beginning of battle resolution then there was a failed rescue attempt and a battle challenge.
If the Hero wins then the battle challenge (or rescue attempt if there was no battle challenge) is successful. If the Evil Character wins then the battle challenge (or rescue attempt if there was no battle challenge) fails.
Defeat: Defeat is caused when a character is discarded, removed from battle or loses in battle (is on the side that loses).
A successful block happens any time there is a failed rescue attempt or failed battle challenge.
A failed block (I don't think that term exists yet, but hypothetically speaking) happens any time there is a successful rescue attempt or successful battle challenge.
Does that adequately define your terms? :)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I think you need to "tighten" up some of those typos, because they're rather loose. :D
So, lemme see if I 100% understand all of them, in my own words:
Rescue Attempt Fails: If the heroes are defeated, or no lost souls are rescued after the evil characters are defeated, or no Evil Characters block but no lost souls are left to rescue.
Rescue Attempt is Successful: The evil characters are defeated or no evil characters block, and a lost soul is redeemed.
Battle Challenge Fails: All heroes are defeated during a battle challenge.
Battle Challenge is Successful: All evil characters are defeated in a battle challenge, or no evil characters block.
Block Fails: All evil characters are defeated, and the rescue attempt or battle challenge is successful
This is a grey area too, if you turn a RA into a BC, is that a successful block?
Block is Successful: All heroes are defeated.
Also a grey area. Technically, if you use a character like Uzzah, isn't the block a failure because no evil characters were in battle, but the rescue attempt fails as well? This is one of the ones that really needs a clear definition, because suicide blocks seem to confuse a lot of people.
Hero is Defeated: Hero is either forced out of battle in some way (discard, capture, withdraw, etc...), or is on the side that loses during battle resolution.
Evil Character is Defeated: Evil character is either forced out of battle in some way (discard, capture, withdraw, etc...), or is on the side that loses during battle resolution.
Are these all correct?
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The attacker wins if any of the following are true:
- the battle is in the "mutual destruction" state
Does this mean that Deceit of Saphira now results in a "win" for the attacker?
Here are my initial thoughts on the terms you listed:
Rescue Attempt Fails: When a rescue attempt is made, and no LS is rescued
Rescue Attempt is Successful: When LS is rescued (not by SoG/NJ)
Block Fails: When a rescue attempt succeeds or a battle challenge that never was a rescue attempt succeeds
Block is Successful: When a rescue attempt fails or a battle challenge fails
Hero is Defeated: When hero loses a rescue attempt or battle challenge
Evil Character is Defeated: When a rescue attempt or battle challenge is successful against an evil character
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Block is Successful: When a rescue attempt fails or a battle challenge fails
This is the one that always causes the most issues. As I said in my post, its very much a grey area. With your definition, if I could have both a successful and unsuccessful block in a single battle. Death of Unrighteous comes to mind. I turn the RA into a battle challenge, so technically the RA fails, but then I lose the proceeding Battle Challenge. So, did I successfully block or not?
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Block is Successful: When a rescue attempt fails or a battle challenge fails
Death of Unrighteous comes to mind. I turn the RA into a battle challenge, so technically the RA fails, but then I lose the proceeding Battle Challenge. So, did I successfully block or not?
Was there a rescue attempt? Yes
Did it fail? Yes
Was the block successful by my definition? Yes
Was there a successful battle challenge? Yes
Was the EC defeated by my definition? Yes
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When is Successful Block decided?
If its decided at the end of the battle phase, then you would have both successfully and unsuccessfully blocked.
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When is Successful Block decided?
If its decided at the end of the battle phase, then you would have both successfully and unsuccessfully blocked.
I don't see how this could be the case. There are really only 3 possibilities that I see:
1 - A rescue attempt that starts that way.
2 - A battle challenge that stays that way.
3 - A battle challenge that starts that way and at some point becomes a rescue attempt.
If #1 fails, then it is a successful block.
If #2 fails, then it is a successful block.
#3 was technically a rescue attempt at one point. If it fails because no LS is rescued by the end, then it was a successful block regardless of why. Maybe the available LSs disappeared again. Maybe the heroes all died. But for whatever reason it was a successful block.
How could you have a block be successful AND unsuccessful?
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Simple, You change the rescue attempt to a battle challenge (successful block) and then lose that battle challenge (unsuccessful block).
Both possibilities were met in the same battle.
Another question: What if my opponent uses Primary Objective, redeems a soul, and then my evil character defeats their hero? Did I successfully block or not?
If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent’s Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge.
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Simple, You change the rescue attempt to a battle challenge (successful block) and then lose that battle challenge (unsuccessful block). Both possibilities were met in the same battle.
Did you read my definition for an unsuccessful block. It said that it was when a "battle challenge THAT WAS NEVER A RESCUE ATTEMPT succeeds. Therefore, the situation you came up with is NOT an unsuccessful block. It is ONLY a successful block. Does the emphasis help that to make more sense?
Another question: What if my opponent uses Primary Objective, redeems a soul, and then my evil character defeats their hero? Did I successfully block or not?
No, they rescued a LS, so that was an unsuccessful block.
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Ahhh, I missed that part. My mistake.
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Ahhh, I missed that part. My mistake.
No problem. I understand your confusion. It is a lot more complicated than simply "you won, I lost" :)
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I'm not sure I've ever counted only the failure of the rescue as a successful block. I consider "successful block" to be a winning result. So denying a Lost Soul but still losing the battle should not IMO be a successful block.
"Block" in the rules is a singular term that encompasses presenting an Evil Character against a Hero, doesn't matter whether it's an RA or BC. Therefore, the outcome of the battle should be the deciding factor, not the state of the rescue attempt vs battle challenge. That only adds confusion to the matter, and there's enough of that just having a situation where a failed rescue and successful challenge can co-exist.
Additionally, every reference in the rulebook to the term "successful block" coincides with an outright win, and if a split-decision is considered a successful block, then both sides of a Type II battle would get XP credit. I don't play enough T2 to know but I'm guessing that's not how XP is normally distributed when a soul is Buried, for example.
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So denying a Lost Soul but still losing the battle should not IMO be a successful block.
If my opponent attacks with Elijah and a Dragon Raid for access, and I block with Zimri to discard DR leaving Elijah in there all by himself with no LS to take, then I consider that a success for the defense. That should count as a successful block.
As for T2, it doesn't matter that in cases of a split decision because one of the sides of battle is no longer alive to receive any experience credit anyway, right?
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How is it a success for the defense if the Hero wins the battle?
"As for T2, it doesn't matter that in cases of a split decision because one of the sides of battle is no longer alive to receive any experience credit anyway, right?"
You rescue 9/9. I block 6/6, bury my Soul and withdraw the EC to territory. Which side of the battle is no longer alive to receive XP?
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How is it a success for the defense if the Hero wins the battle?
Because the LS is more important than survival. That is why it is a successful rescue attempt if the hero takes a LS in a mutual destruction situation. The hero dies, but in giving his life to rescue the soul, we consider it a successful rescue.
Using the same logic, if a hero is trying to take a LS, and the EC stops them, then that is more important than whether the EC dies or remains in battle or whatever. If no LS is taken, then we consider that a successful block.
I just look at it as what is my purpose. If it is just a battle challenge the whole time, then my purpose is to beat the other character. But if there is a LS on the line, then the characters become secondary, and my purpose is to take or keep that LS.
You rescue 9/9. I block 6/6, bury my Soul and withdraw the EC to territory. Which side of the battle is no longer alive to receive XP?
You're right that they are both still alive to get experience credit. However, the hero failed in his purpose. Therefore, I don't think he deserves any experience credit. If I play Burial and don't block he wouldn't get any. So why would he if I block, play some cards that mess up his territory or hand or deck or whatever and then retreat. In that case his outcome is even worse than if I hadn't blocked. So why would he deserve experience credit?
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The hero dies, but in giving his life to rescue the soul, we consider it a successful rescue.
But we're not talking about a condition at end of battle, like stalemate or mutual. We have a clear winner, and yet you are crediting the loser with a success. Additionally, if you consider the rescue of a Lost Soul to be the matter of prime importance, then every battle challenge should be a successful block regardless of outcome, because no Lost Soul is redeemed.
I just look at it as what is my purpose. If it is just a battle challenge the whole time, then my purpose is to beat the other character. But if there is a LS on the line, then the characters become secondary, and my purpose is to take or keep that LS.
"Purpose" has no definition and no general outlining in the rules, and opens up a Pandora's Box of vagaries. Players can begin battles for a variety of "purposes" unrelated to these two goals. Samson's Sacrifice is not a winning card, even if the Hero is of a "purpose" to nuke your Evil Characters, because the rules say mutual by removal is a losing condition for the Hero. "Purpose" is not relevant, nor is the side who played the card relevant.
Additionally, by introducing "purpose" you undermine your point and support Lambo's. If your purpose is to get a LS and you fail, I successfully blocked. But if your new purpose is to beat my character, and I fail, then I was UNsuccessful at the same time. Exactly as he said.
We do have concrete definitions for a lot of other things. A block is the presentation of an Evil Character into a battle. It does not care about the state of the battle; a block is a block is a block. We also have terminology already in place for if a rescue attempt fails. We say, "if rescue attempt fails". If a block is any attempt to counter a Hero in battle, then logically, a successful block should be if the Evil Character defeats the Hero in one of the numerous ways outlined in the rules.
We already have criteria in place for determining the success and failure of a rescue apart from the state of battle. The addition of a blocking matrix into this formula is a needless complication. It benefits some half-dozen cards under limited circumstances and gives the players more confusion in return. It makes a lot more sense all the way around just to say, if you defend in battle, that's a block, and if you win, that's a successful block.
You're right that they are both still alive to get experience credit. However, the hero failed in his purpose. Therefore, I don't think he deserves any experience credit.
This turned out to be a poor example because the rules say specifically that the Hero must rescue a Lost Soul to get XP. But the question is answered without indulging vague notions of "purpose", and in fact you muddy the waters more by adding the negative impact of special abilities to your calculation. As if trying to define "harm" and "negative effect" and what transfers in conversion isn't dicey enough as it is. And I still disagree with the notion of giving an EC experience for losing a battle.
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Hey,
The attacker wins if any of the following are true:
- the battle is in the "mutual destruction" state
Does this mean that Deceit of Saphira now results in a "win" for the attacker?
No, because...
The defender wins if any of the following are true:
- there are no heroes in battle
And "no heroes in battle" trumps "mutual destruction state" for reasons not explained in the portion of the document that I quoted :) (basically, the idea is that all 4 states are only possible if a hero and an evil character are in battle, if either is missing none of those four states apply)
Death of Unrighteous comes to mind. I turn the RA into a battle challenge, so technically the RA fails, but then I lose the proceeding Battle Challenge. So, did I successfully block or not?
Both. You successfully blocked the rescue attempt because no soul was won, but you failed to block the battle challenge because the hero ended up winning the battle challenge.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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And "no heroes in battle" trumps "mutual destruction state" for reasons not explained in the portion of the document that I quoted
Incidentally, what document is quoted here?
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Hey,
Incidentally, what document is quoted here?
It's a document entitled "Rulebook for Advanced Players" that I wrote just for fun a couple years ago and has been sitting around on my hard drive collecting dust.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Okay.
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Well this is a complicated issue, and obviously we have different Elders with slightly different views. I suggest that we continue this discussion on the other forum and return here when we have come to a consensus :)
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Oh good! That means the rest of us can SPAM this thread while you're gone. Woo-hoo!
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If you guys do take it to the secret forum, could you try to either use my initial attempt to write out the definitions as a basis, or at least just try to clearly define all of the following terms?
Rescue Attempt Fails: If the heroes are defeated, or no lost souls are rescued after the evil characters are defeated, or no Evil Characters block but no lost souls are left to rescue.
Rescue Attempt is Successful: The evil characters are defeated or no evil characters block, and a lost soul is redeemed.
Battle Challenge Fails: All heroes are defeated during a battle challenge.
Battle Challenge is Successful: All evil characters are defeated in a battle challenge, or no evil characters block.
Block Fails: All evil characters are defeated, and the rescue attempt or battle challenge is successful
Block is Successful: All heroes are defeated.
Hero is Defeated: Hero is either forced out of battle in some way (discard, capture, withdraw, etc...), or is on the side that loses during battle resolution.
Evil Character is Defeated: Evil character is either forced out of battle in some way (discard, capture, withdraw, etc...), or is on the side that loses during battle resolution.
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Hey,
Incidentally, what document is quoted here?
It's a document entitled "Rulebook for Advanced Players" that I wrote just for fun a couple years ago and has been sitting around on my hard drive collecting dust.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
same time as the "Advanced expansion" of kings came out?
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A lot of these are a lot easier than they're being made out to be, and they are spelled out in Battle Resolution.
If you make a Rescue Attempt and get the Lost Soul, that was a successful rescue.
If you lose the rescue or lose access, the rescue fails.
If you win a battle challenge, it's successful; if you lose, it fails.
Outright win and mutual by numbers is a win for the Hero. Outright loss, stalemate, or mutual by special ability is a win for the EC. Winning characters that survive (or are on their way to the discard pile in mutual) defeated any characters that were on the losing side.
That covers everything except block, which apparently just became controversial. I wouldn't waste any time with "block fails" because that's not used in the game and I don't see any cause to use it.
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We might as well define it for future use while we're at it. I prefer to figure things out BEFORE they show up in games.
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It's just going to be the inverse of a successful block, like the others.
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Well, Failed rescue attempt seems to work differently.
Still, is there any reason having too many definitions is a bad thing?
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No, a failed rescue does not work differently. You either get the soul or you don't. It's just that there is more than one way not to get the soul and I was being thorough.
Having too many definitions is a bad thing if needless complications are created. Having the definitions we need is always a good thing.