Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Arch Angel on August 21, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
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So. Block with King Neb, equipped with Swift Horses. I search for an EC and want to add it to battle. However order of operations says banding happens after weapons, but that the search should happen before the weapon. So what happens, in what order? Do I band first, then d2 and play, or do I have to d2 and play first, then band?
Nebuchadnezzar (TP)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 6 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Play As: If no Daniel Hero is in play, search deck for an O.T. crimson card and place it to hand or battle. Cannot be negated.
Swift Horses (FF)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Play As: You may interrupt the battle and draw 2. If used by a Babylonian, you may play an enhancement.
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I've asked similar questions about cards that can just "add to battle." do they turn into banding, or should add to battle become its own ability? Any card that only bands but uses "add to battle" could be clarified in the play as. This way, Add to Battle is only used for abilities that can put multiple types of cards into battle.
Or I might be crazy because I just woke up. You can decide that too. :P
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EC gets added to battle, then Swift Horses kicks in. So yeah, that CBN Head of Gold works like a charm.
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"Add to battle" may or may not currently be ruled a banding ability, but there is strong momentum to changing that to avoid unanswerable questions like this, as well as the problem of negating potentiality (i.e. an "add an Evil card to battle" sometimes being banding and sometimes play next, but indeterminable until after it's already been carried out).
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EC gets added to battle, then Swift Horses kicks in. So yeah, that CBN Head of Gold works like a charm.
This is the last thing I've heard it being, as per me asking Gabe a few months ago.
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The search always happens before the weapon regardless of what you end up searching for.
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is Nebby's ability considered banding even though you can add to hand?
Can Hosea capture Nebby?
Hosea (FF2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 5 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may capture an O.T. human Evil Character with a band ability to opponent's Land of Bondage. Cannot be interrupted. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Prophet • Verse: Hosea 1:1 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers Extended booster packs (None)
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Last I knew, any ability that could add a character to a battle that already had a character (except exchanges) were always considered banding abilities.
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is Nebby's ability considered banding even though you can add to hand?
Can Hosea capture Nebby?
I would say no to both
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Nebby's ability isn't banding until he bands, which would be after Hosea targets (unless Hosea is banded into battle after Nebby searches for an EC) meaning that Hosea can only target him if Hosea is banded into battle after Nebby grabs another EC.
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The underlying cause for this whole problem is that for some reason the rulemakers decided it was a good idea for cards to do things other than what they say. Why were "May not block" and "Has no effect" ruled to mean the same thing as ignore? Does that make things easier somehow? Shortcuts like capture are a different story, but for the majority of instances I don't see why we need silly rules like, "Add to battle is the same as banding if it adds a character," or, "Exchange is banding if there is already another character in battle." Why can't add to battle be add to battle and exchange be exchange? What breaks when we make things simpler?
I'm not a tournament host or playgroup starter, but I can imagine it would be difficult to explain these kinds of rules to new players. Maybe that's a big reason why the game is shrinking in popularity.
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That specific example further underscores the problem. It's not like there's a consistent blanket rule that any time a character is added to the same side of a battle that already has a character, it's a banding ability. That would at least be universally applicable. However an exchange ability that adds another character to battle is not a banding ability.
For the life of me I don't understand why only banding abilities are considered banding abilities. It would solve so many major headaches while only creating a few minor ones and making older cards stronger (isn't that what we're always pushing for?).
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Actually, this question has nothing to do with whether the "add to battle" ability is considered banding or not.
ALL effects that add a character to battle (band, choose blocker, any other "add a character to battle" abilities) are supposed to happen after the draw and play abilities on the weapon. The overarching rule is that you complete one character before introducing another to the field of battle.
The only problem here is what you do with the EC you searched for if you want to add it to battle. Does it hang in limbo somewhere while it waits for its turn to enter battle? That is a good question!
It is kind of like Second Seal: All the characters are targeted at the same time, but they enter battle in the order you want. The ones you don't pick first just hang out in territory, waiting their turn to enter battle.
I suppose it could work the same way here. You select the card you want (and reveal it to your opponent). If it is an enhancement, you play it. If it is a character, you could set it face up on top of your deck (since it should be considered coming from your deck at that point). Or somehow show it is ready to enter battle. Then you draw 2 and play next. Then you add the character to the battle.
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Is that the official ruling? So Horses would insert itself between the completion of the search ability and thus the EC floats in limbo?
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So what happens if I play Belshazzaars banquet off horses?
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So what happens if I play Belshazzaars banquet off horses?
Then you add the EC to the battle after that point. Just like you can add an EC to the battle with Unknown Nation after opponent plays AoCp.
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What happens if you play a battle ends off of horses when a character is waiting to enter battle?
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and just so people don't say "that's not possible" it is.
play arrogance, then love of money or the crimson mask enhancement, then you can play an end the battle.
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Or just have The Winged Lion or Spirit of Temptation banded to King Nebby and play Worshiping Demons
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Can we get another elder to confirm Bryon's ruling so I can go cause Lambo's scenario and get an EC stuck face up on the top of my deck for an entire game?
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What would happen if I played Siege and plan to band in 3 ECs. The first character I banded in is an evil character than can play next, and I use an end the battle enhancement. Can I still band in the other 2 evil characters? No. The battle ended. Pending abilities end, too. That is why Assyrian Archers can shoot, interrupt with horses, and end the battle without being their pending discard kicking back in.
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What would happen if I played Siege and plan to band in 3 ECs. The first character I banded in is an evil character than can play next, and I use an end the battle enhancement. Can I still band in the other 2 evil characters? No. The battle ended. Pending abilities end, too. That is why Assyrian Archers can shoot, interrupt with horses, and end the battle without being their pending discard kicking back in.
I've actually been told by Gabe that if you play siege, then end the battle, all the characters are still in battle for the numerical check, only their abilities never get to activate.
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Does that contradict the Archers Horses Forgotten History ruling that lets achers survive?
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I don't think so? It's saying that you play siegem then every character enters battle and their SAs have to activate in the order you choose. They're all "in" battle, though, they've just not triggered yet.
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I don't think so? It's saying that you play siegem then every character enters battle and their SAs have to activate in the order you choose. They're all "in" battle, though, they've just not triggered yet.
Sounds right. Then this would have to be ruled the same way.
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So what happens if I play Belshazzaars banquet off horses?
Then you add the EC to the battle after that point. Just like you can add an EC to the battle with Unknown Nation after opponent plays AoCp.
Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake, but I sure do appreciate all you helping on this stuff,
What would happen, in the above example, TO that added EC?
1) Are Nebby and his enhancements (Horses and Belshazzaars Banquet) discarded/being discarded and THEN the other EC is added [thus surviving BB)
OR
2) Would the added EC be targeted as one of the "Evil Characters in Battle" before BB resolves?
Belshazzar's Banquet
Discard all Evil Characters in battle. Protect all Lost Souls from rescue by a Hero this turn
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I'd say #1.