Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on September 10, 2009, 11:12:46 PM
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Can I put a Hero in Kereth Ravine and take it back out in the same prep phase?
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Can I put a Hero in Kereth Ravine and take it back out in the same prep phase?
A similar question to this was asked a little while back. The answer was "No."
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Why not? You are allowed to put characters in Fortresses during your prep. You are allowed to take characters out of your fortresses during your prep. Why not do both?
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Why not? You are allowed to put characters in Fortresses during your prep. You are allowed to take characters out of your fortresses during your prep. Why not do both?
For pretty much the same reason that technically you can't activate an artifact, think about it a bit, and then turn the artifact down and activate another. The gist was that you are not allowed to gain a benefit for the character being in the fortress if you place them and remove them in the same prep phase.
If what you are asking about is a case where you merely had second thoughts about putting a character in the fortress, and you want a take back, most players aren't going to complain. Much like most players won't complain if you activate Gifts of the Magi (for example), and then decide you would rather have Household Idols up. As a judge I would be hard pressed to rule against you in either of those circumstances.
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Nah, I just wanted a quick and easy way to generate a Persian Presidents target. Waiting one turn isn't going to kill me, though :)
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Hey,
I'm not aware of the previous discussion. I would say yes you can put a character into and then pull it out of Kereth Ravine during the same prep phase.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I stand corrected then. I could have sworn I saw something similar asked before.
On the other hand, I just noticed that the SA on Kerith Ravine doesn't say anything about being able to remove a hero from the fortress once it's there. That would mean the original answer is still no although for a fundamentally different reason (i.e., you can't remove the hero at all ;) ).
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Except the the default for removing cards is to do it in prep phase ;) Nice try though.
Side note: Why would you need to wait a turn to have a Persian Presidents target? They can capture any hero that's in set-aside as well can't they?
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Except the the default for removing cards is to do it in prep phase ;) Nice try though.
The default time for removing cards is the prep phase. You would still need the ability to remove a character, and I am not sure how that is granted in this case. (This case == another of the over-thinking-things moments I am prone to.) I understand that if you are not allowed to remove heroes from Kerith Ravine that KR is relatively useless. Is it just a default sa of fortresses that whatever you put in can be gotten out during the prep phase? Why wouldn't the default for returning a character from KR be the upkeep phase, which is the defautl for returning from set aside?
Side note: Why would you need to wait a turn to have a Persian Presidents target? They can capture any hero that's in set-aside as well can't they?
KR protects from harm, which means that PP cannot capture them while they are in the fortress.
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You don't need an ability on a Fortress to be able to add/remove a card if the Fortress ability doesn't give any requirements for adding/removing cards. The default game rule is that you can add/remove cards from a Fortress during the prep phase. If this isn't true, then all those Forts from RoA don't work (Stronghold in the Dessert, House in Bethany, Musician's Chambers,
TGT ;), etc.).
Cards are placed in a fortress during the Preparation Phase, unless specified otherwise (e.g., Storehouse or Banishment).
That statement should probably also include that cards can be removed from Fortresses also during the prep phase. Even though it's not directly stated it is implied.
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You don't need an ability on a Fortress to be able to add/remove a card if the Fortress ability doesn't give any requirements for adding/removing cards. The default game rule is that you can add/remove cards from a Fortress during the prep phase. If this isn't true, then all those Forts from RoA don't work (Stronghold in the Dessert, House in Bethany, Musician's Chambers, TGT ;), etc.).
So I can use Musicians' Chambers as a Storehouse for musical enhancements? I didn't realize that I could pick up an enhancement from Musicians' Chambers and add it to my hand.
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So I can use Musicians' Chambers as a Storehouse for musical enhancements? I didn't realize that I could pick up an enhancement from Musicians' Chambers and add it to my hand.
It's my understanding that you can pick up any number of Enhancements from MC during your prep phase.
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Hey,
Except the the default for removing cards is to do it in prep phase
Abilities that move cards out of a Fortress have a default of only working during the preparation phase, but there is not a general rule that says you can move a card out of a Fortress during your prep phase.
You don't need an ability on a Fortress to be able to add/remove a card if the Fortress ability doesn't give any requirements for adding/removing cards. The default game rule is that you can add/remove cards from a Fortress during the prep phase. If this isn't true, then all those Forts from RoA don't work (Stronghold in the Dessert, House in Bethany, Musician's Chambers, TGT ;), etc.).
That isn't true. Which is why Mike, Bryon, and I created the "holds" ability after RoA came out. Sadly there hasn't been a major REG update since RoA so the "holds" entry still isn't in the REG. The following are the main points regarding "hold" abilities:
- There is no game rule that allows cards to be placed into or removed from a fortress.
- A phrase that says what a card “holds” is a hold special ability regardless of where on the card the phrase appears.
- A hold abilities allows a player to place qualifying cards on the card with the hold ability when it is not at it's maximum capacity and allows a player to return cards from the card with the hold ability.
- Hold abilities are manually triggered abilities that can only be triggered during their owner's preparation phase.
- If the special ability on a card explains how cards get on that card and how cards get off of that card then that takes precedence over any “hold” ability on that card and a “hold” ability on that card should be disregarded.
So I can use Musicians' Chambers as a Storehouse for musical enhancements? I didn't realize that I could pick up an enhancement from Musicians' Chambers and add it to my hand.
Enhancements cannot be returned to hand from a Fortress unless a special ability on the card specifies otherwise. (this could be added as a list item in the list above but because it was asked specifically I wanted to answer it separately).
Kerith Ravine will have the following play as in one of the next REG updates:
Play As: You may place one O.T human Hero from your territory or set-aside here and/or return a Hero here to where it came from. Protect Heroes here from harm.
Attribute: Play to set-aside area
See Also: my comments in http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17812.0. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17812.0.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So I was (temporarily) correct? Awesome. :)