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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: BubbleBoy on May 18, 2009, 05:06:41 PM
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If I make a rescue attempt with John, (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/john.promo..htm) can I choose to shuffle the deck that I look at if I want? I assumed you could, since it says you may look at a deck and return it unshuffled, meaning you may look at a deck and then you may return it unshuffled. So if you choose not to return it unshuffled, you have to shuffle it, right? However, Justin (Guardian) disagrees with me.
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Given how it's presently worded, I agree with you. I don't think that's what it's supposed to mean, but that's what it says.
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Traditionally, when multiple abilities are after a "may," each one can be chosen independently. So let's look at this:
"Player may look through any draw pile and return the cards unshuffled to their original location."
So our options are:
1) Look through a draw pile, and return it unshuffled.
2) Don't look through a draw pile, and don't return it unshuffled.
3) Don't look through a draw pile, and return it unshuffled.
4) Look through a draw pile, and don't return it unshuffled.
1 is the normal use. 2 is just declining to do anything. 3 doesn't make sense, since there's nothing to return. 4 will cause you to unnecessarily stall a game since you just look through it without end, and a judge will award the other person the win.
No option there is "look through a draw pile and return it shuffled."
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Hey,
If John has two separate abilities then I would agree that you could look at a draw pile and then shuffle it. But I believe John has one ability that is poorly worded which results in it looking like it has two abilities. The phrase "and return the cards unshuffled" means "the default condition of shuffling a deck after you look at it doesn't apply to this ability." As such it modifies the ability rather than being a second ability.
(This is similar to Dungeon of Malchiah - "Take any Hero prisoner and place Hero in your opponent's Land of Bondage." - which does not have two abilities, one a capture ability and the other a place ability, but rather one ability, a capture ability, with a place phrase that modifies the ability and changes the destination of the captured character away from the default.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I believe Bryon said something to the effect of "Whenever there is a may, it gives you as many choices as possible." This would seems to support what Tim was saying. I'll try to find Bryon's quote though....
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That quote doesn't really apply here. I agree with Tim. The "return without shuffling" just removes the default shuffle that usually accompanies a search. The irony is that "look through" is more like a reveal than a seach, and reveals don't require shuffling.
In short: you don't shuffle.
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Okay, but it still could do with a little rewording. :-\
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John's ability isn't a reveal though, right? As in, you don't get to show the other players at the table what cards are in the deck?
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Okay, but it still could do with a little rewording. :-\
Why? What is the second special ability you think is allowed?
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It is a "Reveal"/"look at" ability.
"Reveal" defaults to all players. "Look at" defaults to yourself only.
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That is the first ability. I'm curious as to the second ability that people are saying is an additional option.
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Hey,
Schaef, the ability on John (Promo) has a compound verb joined together with the conjunction and, usually when that sentence structure appears in Redemption it indicates multiple abilities.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Thank you. I understand sentence structure. Please tell me the ability.
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Player may
- look through any draw pile (look / don't look)
- return the cards unshuffled to their original location (shuffle / don't shuffle)
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But that is like saying
Player may
-take a hero prisoner
-put it in your land of bondage
Both of those phrases are just describing "capture." They are not separate abilities.
Same as John's ability describes a "look at" ability. It is all one ability.
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- return the cards unshuffled to their original location (shuffle / don't shuffle)
Put the cards back is not an ability. If you look at someone's hand, you don't need to be told to put the cards back in their hand. The default condition is to return a revealed/looked card to its original location.
Shuffling is an ability. Not shuffling is not an ability. It's nothing. It clarifies only that you do not shuffle (which, since this is a look and not a search, is probably the default condition anyway).
This is just like how Prince of This World's second sentence is a clarifier. Or as Bryon said, many capture cards.
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Choosing to not draw 3 when playing Reach is nothing as well, but its still an option.
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Draw 3 is an ability. Not draw is not an ability.
Example. Capture a Hero and do not draw a card.
Well, duh. You're already not drawing a card.
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If that card said "you may capture a hero and draw a card"... then "not drawing" would be an option, even though it is nothing.
I would argue that not shuffling IS an ability. It is an ability that allows you to break the standard rules of the game, just play playing the next enhancement lets you bypass initiative.
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The standard rule about shuffling is:
"A deck is always reshuffled after it has been searched unless a card states otherwise"
What has been said several times is that "look at", like "reveal", is not a "search" ability, and therefore this default doesn't apply. John's second "ability" is just a clarification.
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If that card said "you may capture a hero and draw a card"... then "not drawing" would be an option, even though it is nothing.
Draw a card is an ability. Do not draw a card is not an ability. You are not using the correct analogy, because my example is the same thing as the John card, and your example is changing it to something else.
I would argue that not shuffling IS an ability. It is an ability that allows you to break the standard rules of the game, just play playing the next enhancement lets you bypass initiative.
Not shuffling doesn't do anything. How are you breaking the rules by not doing something that you don't do anyway?
Playing the next Enhancement IS AN ABILITY. You get to PLAY A CARD. Your examples are doing the same thing over and over again, using ACTIONS that you have the option to NOT take, and trying to say that's the same thing as a sentence that says DON'T do something. And did you even read my comparison to Prince of This World? Or Bryon's reference to capture cards?
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What is a "look at" ability? The REG defines search as only the searcher seeing the cards and reveal as everyone seeing the cards. Nothing specifies that a card has to be selected during a search.
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Look-at is a one-person reveal. Bryon already explained this.
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Right. "Look at" and "Reveal" are abilities with the same default: don't shuffle.
If any of these abilities are currently grouped with "Search" in the REG, that will be changed soon.
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"Search, Reveal, and Exchange" is one heading in the REG. I don't see "Look at" anywhere.
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If that's how you're going to treat this conversation, then I guess the ruling is that John has absolutely no ability whatsoever.
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Not shuffling doesn't do anything. How are you breaking the rules by not doing something that you don't do anyway?
Looking further into the REG...
"A deck is always reshuffled after it has been searched unless a card states otherwise (see Beginning a Game in the rulebook [p. 5])."
I see nothing in there that says a "revealed" deck isnt shuffled. Therefore, you ARE breaking the rules if you do not shuffle the deck after looking through it.
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"A deck is always reshuffled after it has been searched unless a card states otherwise (see Beginning a Game in the rulebook [p. 5])."
Shuffle is not reveal.
I see nothing in there that says a "revealed" deck isnt shuffled. Therefore, you ARE breaking the rules if you do not shuffle the deck after looking through it.
Come on, now you're just making stuff up. Unless you want to argue that you can shuffle at any time, this is a non-argument.
Let me know when you guys intend to take this conversation seriously.
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I am taking it seriously. Find where it says a "revealed" deck is NOT shuffled in the REG or Rulebook.
http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/searchrevealorexchange.htm (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/searchrevealorexchange.htm)
I looked through this entire section.
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Unless you want to argue that you can shuffle at any time, this is a non-argument.
Hey, here's my new ruling. The rules don't say that I DON'T shuffle when I draw a card, therefore I MUST shuffle every time I draw a card.
The REG doesn't say I DON'T shuffle whenever I begin a rescue attempt, therefore I MUST shuffle whenever I begin a rescue attempt.
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Tell me where the REG says that ECs with an Ecclesiastes reference are not dipped in butterscotch pudding every time someone says "Snork."
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I meant "Look at" as a type of ability (and an official definition). And to show that reveal was grouped with search.
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Reveal is grouped with search because the abilities are similar. Not because they do the same thing. Tell me what grouping has to do with ANYthing in this thread, especially after Bryon already said distinct abilities would be broken out in the next update.
And my response to you remains the same. You are ignoring Bryon's and my explanation and focusing exclusively on what the REG says. If that is the position you are going to take, then what you have to do is abandon any threads posted here, no longer ask other people about things, and just look at the REG for all of your answers.
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Im not just trying to come up with stuff. The REG says anytime a deck is searched, it is shuffled. Reveal is grouped with search. Nothing in the REG says you don't shuffle after a reveal. The fact that it is grouped with Search and the lack of information on how Reveals work would imply Reveal works the same way as Search.
I'm just saying that according to the REG, it would appear that you shuffle after you look at the entirety of the deck in any way shape or form. Nothing is said about shuffling after drawing, so that point is moot. lol.
*EDIT* I respect yours and Bryons statements, I'm saying that its not clear unless someone specificly asks one of you two, and that this should be clarified.
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I'm also going to give the thematic explanation that John was given the gift to see events of the future, but not to change them. :)
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Reveal is grouped with search.
Reveal is NOT a search. The REG has SPECIFIC RULES that say, when you search, you do this, this and this. When you reveal, you do this, this and this.
The fact that it is grouped with Search and the lack of information on how Reveals work would imply Reveal works the same way as Search.
By this logic, do you also assume Discard and Remove are the same thing? That any card that returns a captured Hero is a healing card? Why is this the only section where you assume that you apply all of the rules to one ability to another, similar but not identical ability?
I'm just saying that according to the REG, it would appear that you shuffle after you look at the entirety of the deck in any way shape or form.
No, because the REG says you do it AFTER A SEARCH. It specifically says SEARCH. It has rules that say search, and it has rules that say reveal. If those rules applied to everything, there would be NO REASON to say "search" or "reveal", and yet they each have their own rules in that section. So how does this make sense?
Nothing is said about shuffling after drawing, so that point is moot.
Nothing is said about shuffling after a reveal. There you go. Besides, you were arguing that you're supposed to shuffled because the rulebook DOES NOT say that you DO NOT shuffle. So apply your logic to every single section that does not say anything about not shuffling.
*EDIT* I respect yours and Bryons statements, I'm saying that its not clear unless someone specificly asks one of you two, and that this should be clarified.
Someone asked and we answered. The subject is still being questioned.
The matter was clarified. The subject is still being questioned.
Bryon specifically said the REG entries on these would be revised in the next update. The subject is still being questioned.
I am running out of things I can think of that would satisfy you to the point where we are not still going back to this over and over again.
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Tell me what grouping has to do with ANYthing in this thread, especially after Bryon already said distinct abilities would be broken out in the next update.
I mainly posted it because he said that.
Here's the current REG definition for Search:
A search can be used effectively to do one of the following: (1) find a card to use in the current battle, (2) find a card to use in a future battle, (3) see what cards remain in one of your opponent’s piles, or (4) see what cards remain in one of your piles.
A "Look at" is 3 or 4, and a "Search" is 1 or 2, correct? "Search" has a card selection and a shuffle whereas "Look at" has no card selection and no shuffle?
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That is not a definition. That is a list of strategic uses for the ability.
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I really haven't read much of this thread, so I'll just go with the "tried and true":
Marcus is correct.
:)
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So what's the difference between a "look at" and a "search" (besides not shuffling)? Selecting (or wanting to select) a card?
Does Hezekiah's Signet Ring (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/hezekiahssignetring1.htm) stop a "look at"?
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Very good question. I would have assumed Hez Signet Ring would stop John.
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Yes, looking for something is what constitutes a search.
You search FOR something. Then, since you were not really supposed to know the order, you must shuffle.
When you look at something, you gain the knowledge of where something is. You don't shuffle.
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So what's the difference between a "look at" and a "search" (besides not shuffling)? Selecting (or wanting to select) a card?
This is the part I don't understand. Both of these abilities have been around since Prophets, and no one has ever asked me if False Peace and False Wisdom were the same thing. No one has ever looked at my hand and then shuffled it before giving it back to me.
Here's how "Look At" works. You look at the cards it tells you to look at. That's all. Just put it back the way you found it.
"Reveal" means that you take the cards and reveal them to everybody. That's all. Just put it back the way you found it.
"Search" means you go digging through a pile for a card, and either put it in your hand, or do whatever else the card says to do. The REG offers the additional rule that if your "Search" involves a draw pile, shuffle it.
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No one has ever looked at my hand and then shuffled it before giving it back to me.
I can't wait to do this at the next tournament. :D
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Does Hezekiah's Signet Ring (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/hezekiahssignetring1.htm) stop a "look at"?
Bryon or Stephen, can you answer this point specifically?
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It says Search. I think that answers the whole question.
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Hey,
Tell me where the REG says that ECs with an Ecclesiastes reference are not dipped in butterscotch pudding every time someone says "Snork."
ECs with an Ecclesiastes reference are dipped in butterscotch pudding every time someone says "Snork," why would the Reg say otherwise? ;-)
No one has ever looked at my hand and then shuffled it before giving it back to me.
Then I hope you take the responsibility upon yourself to shuffle your hand after having it returned to you. I certainly do.
So what's the difference between a "look at" and a "search" (besides not shuffling)? Selecting (or wanting to select) a card?
Does Hezekiah's Signet Ring (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/hezekiahssignetring1.htm) stop a "look at"?
Exactly right, a "look at" does not try to select a card. I believe Hezekiah's Signet Ring would stop "look at" abilities. Although that is something that is being discussed and may change when the new REG is released.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Then I hope you take the responsibility upon yourself to shuffle your hand after having it returned to you. I certainly do.
You are free to waste time in whatever way you see fit. It's not required by the rules.
I believe Hezekiah's Signet Ring would stop "look at" abilities.
Look at is not a search, precisely because it does not have a target. You can't acknowledge differences between the two abilities and then turn around and say in the same breath that they are the same ability.
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Cards that contain "search" in the SA are almost always targeting an entire draw, discard, or Artifact pile (1 exception: Zeresh). Cards that contain "look at" in the SA are almost always targeting a hand, face down cards, or a portion of a draw pile (2 exceptions: John and False Peace, and False Peace has a Play As).
A couple of questions:
1) Are cards that use "look at" and discard/take/etc. a card from a hand searches?
2) Is Strength Revealed a "look at", where the second sentence overrides the default of returning the cards as they were?
3) Is Zeresh not subject to shuffling the deck because it doesn't search the entire deck? Or because it overrides the default of shuffling?
Strength Revealed:
Look at top 6 cards from one opponent's draw pile. Return the cards to the top of opponent's draw pile in any order. Cannot be negated.
Zeresh:
Protect Zeresh and Haman from conversion. May band to Haman to search the top 6 cards of your draw pile for an evil card. Return the rest in any order.
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Look at is not a search, precisely because it does not have a target. You can't acknowledge differences between the two abilities and then turn around and say in the same breath that they are the same ability.
Why can't "Look at" be sort of a sub-option of "Search," Like CBP is to CBN or something? I mean, CBP is clearly different from CBN....
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In the case of each card, the text stating to put the cards in a certain order overrides the default of 2). returning the cards in the same order and 3). shuffling the searched cards (which I would rule only applies to the top six even if a shuffle occurred).
Question 1 raises an interesting point. In practice, the only difference between the two types of hand discard are whether the discarded card is known or not. Possibilities include a "Look at" ability separate from the discard ability, which could be either random or chosen, and that would be somewhat consistent with a player knowing the contents of his own hand if he is forced to choose one to discard; or that "look at" with a target given a second effect (e.g. discard) counts as a Search (and would probably warrant a Play As similar to False Peace).
Why can't "Look at" be sort of a sub-option of "Search," Like CBP is to CBN or something? I mean, CBP is clearly different from CBN....
Why can't Look At be a sort of sub-option of Reveal? That's what we've been trying to call it so far this thread...
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Zeresh:
Protect Zeresh and Haman from conversion. May band to Haman to search the top 6 cards of your draw pile for an evil card. Return the rest in any order.
All this time I have been returning the (N-6) draw pile cards in any order. This has worked well as I normally put the dominants and battle winners at the top so I draw them in 2 turns.
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Hey,
Why can't Look At be a sort of sub-option of Reveal?
"Reveal" first appeared on a Redemption card in the Angel Wars set in 2004. "Look at" first appeared on a Redemption card in the Prophets set in 1996. For eight years and the first 14 times the phrase "look at" was used in Redemption it couldn't be a sub-option of Reveal because Reveal didn't exist.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I'm sorry, the current rules have something to do with the order the abilities initially appeared why, now?
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Reveal and "look at" are the same ability, with just a different number of players participating.
Reveal could be written "all players look at."
Search and reveal are not the same. Search implies you are looking for something.
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Search implies you are looking for something.
Is that in anything official? (Not questioning the logic, just wondering if there's something to point to other than "Bryon said so".)
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It's covered in part in the "How to Play" quoted earlier in this thread, and the "Default Conditions" section lays out a number of rules regarding types of cards searched FOR. Additionally, there is no search card that does not target a card to go to hand or have something else you are instructed to do with the card you search for.
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Search implies you are looking for something.
Is that in anything official? (Not questioning the logic, just wondering if there's something to point to other than "Bryon said so".)
Does it get more official than that? I have won so many ruling questions by saying, "That's what Bryon told me." ;D :D
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You can't just rule based on "Bryon said so." But when Schaef and I agree, we have a decent correct percentage.
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Careful! If we get a thread wherein Marcus is NOT correct, there just may be that earthquake when CA slides into the ocean. :P
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Marcus' correct percentage is extremely high. But when he's using an outdated/incomplete REG entry on which to base his answer, it stands to reason his answer might be outdated/incomplete as well.
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I have only counted one thread in which Bryon was wrong... and he's been on a LOT of threads. So I think that's a pretty good percentage. Probably because he never posts when we have a REALLY difficult ruling... ::) ;)
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LOL. I've been wrong a LOT more than that. But I do like waiting to hear other peoples' responses before jumping into the really sharky waters.
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Haha, I always jump right in, and typically on the ones that are the hardest. Probably why no one PM's me for rulings... 8)