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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on August 30, 2019, 07:57:36 AM
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To toss a card you have to discard it, so does it count as a discard ability?
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To toss a card you have to discard it, so does it count as a discard ability?
Toss (my wording) - When an enhancement is played, if it is Tossed, instead discard that enhancement and decrease an opposing character X/X, where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement.
In the same way that a Take ability can be a search even though it doesn't have the word "search", I would honestly rule that Toss is both a discard ability and a decrease ability.
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Could we get an elder to confirm pls? Thanks
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The discard is a modification of a game rule of playing an enhancement. It is an ability that lets you discard not a discard ability in-and-of itself.
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The discard is a modification of a game rule of playing an enhancement. It is an ability that lets you discard not a discard ability in-and-of itself.
Even more technically, it's an instead ability that includes a discard as part of the instead. My immediate reaction is to say it's not a discard ability, but I can't remember if there might be precedent for abilities that include other abilities (like Take including Search) to count as the included ability. If there isn't a hard ruling yet in the elder's minds, my :2cents: is that cards should only count as "having a _____" ability if _____ literally appears in the card's rules text.
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I know hezzys signant ring stops take from deck abilities because they inhearantly inclued a search ability, so they count as a search ability, that to me says toss is a discsrd ability because it inhearently discards the enhancement.
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A while back we worked diligently to “untangle” abilities. IIRC the only exception at the end of that labor of love is search. Some abilities function similarly, or even do the same thing under the right circumstances, but they do not qualify as the same thing.
So I’m pretty certain that toss doesn’t qualify as a discard ability although it does discard.
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The action of discarding a card to activate a specific ability that targets a card (i.e., toss), to me, is not the same as an ability (i.e., discard ability) that specifically targets a card to be discarded. Therefore, I would say that a toss ability is not the same as a discard ability.
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To me that is overly complex, an ability that discards a card is a discard ability, why does it need to be any more complicated than that?
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From the REG:
Toss
Last Updated: 5/7/2019 (v6.0.0)
Released: 3/4/2013
How to Play
● A toss effect allows a player to play an Enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the
numbers or abilities of the Enhancement, the Enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character,
regardless of protect or immune effects.
● The opposing character is decreased X/X, where X is the strength of the discarded Enhancement at face value.
The decrease is instant.
● A toss effect targets the Enhancements that would be played and an opposing character to be decreased for each
Enhancement that would be played.
● Unless otherwise specified, Enhancement targets come from a hand.
● Toss effects that target variations on the “next Enhancement” or “all Enhancements” are ongoing.
● All other toss effects are instant.
Special Conditions
● Weapons which are played in battle, including those equipped to characters added to battle are also affected by
an active toss effect.
● Enhancements played in battle or added to battle by an ability are also affected by an active toss effect.
● If a toss effect is negated all tossed cards are returned to their previous locations and the decrease is removed
from the decreased characters.
● If an Enhancement with negative strength is tossed, it results in an increase to the opposing character. This is
because the decrease subtracts the strength from the opposing character, and subtracting a negative number
increases the value.
Discard
Last Updated: 1/3/2018 (v5.0.0)
Released: 7/26/2011
How to Play
● A discard effect moves a card from its current location to its owner’s discard pile.
● If a Lost Soul is discarded from a deck it is put into its owner’s Land of Bondage.
● If multiple cards are discarded by a single discard effect, reveal the cards before putting them in the discard
pile.
● A discard effect targets the cards that are to be discarded.
● Unless otherwise specified, targets must be in play.
● All discard effects are instant.
Clarifications
● The word “instantly” in the phrase “instantly discarded” is superfluous.
Initially, I had the same concern/confusion until I came to grips that Toss is Toss, Discard is Discard and the two shall never cross. I believe it to be game rule that causes a Toss card "to go to/be placed in the discard pile" (maybe that verbiage will help clarify). It is not a discard ability that causes a Toss card "to be discarded". At least this is how I keep it straight and clear in my mind.
Godspeed,
Mike
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Then why is a take from deck ability also a search ability? There is a lack of consistency on how these ability within an ability abilities have been ruled on
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Then why is a take from deck ability also a search ability? There is a lack of consistency on how these ability within an ability abilities have been ruled on
Because you are searching for a card when the take targets the deck, etc. This is not the same when it comes to what a discard ability is in Redemption.
A discard ability specifically targets a card for discard from play to the discard pile based upon what the ability is targeting. The point of a toss is to not play the ability on the tossed card but instead to decrease an opposing character by X/X due to the strength of the tossed card. And a part of the toss ability is to discard the decreasing card as a physical action, not an ability that discards a specific card in play. If you want to consider a toss a discard ability then you might as well consider a decrease ability as also a discard ability bc if the decreased character’s toughness reaches 0 then that card is discarded. But a discard and decrease are not the same ability bc they are fundamentally different, just as a toss ability and discard ability are fundamentally different.
And for the record, I was never a fan of take being used as a search ability. I thought it should have been left as taking ownership of an opponent’s card because of the crossing of abilities that can (and has) caused, at times, confusion. The same with regardless of protection becoming a modifier. It should have been left as part of an ability.
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This question here:
Then why is a take from deck ability also a search ability? There is a lack of consistency on how these ability within an ability abilities have been ruled on
Is answered by Gabe here:
A while back we worked diligently to “untangle” abilities. IIRC the only exception at the end of that labor of love is search. Some abilities function similarly, or even do the same thing under the right circumstances, but they do not qualify as the same thing.
Ideally, Take is Take, Search is Search and never the two shall cross. But according to Gabe, after a lot of research and work, Take and Search could not be completely "untangled" from each other. Although not ideal, I surmise the Elders are well aware of it and will continue to do their best to minimize additional confusion between Take and Search.
Godspeed,
Mike
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One way to think about it is that if you had something that protects your Good Enhancements from discard, it wouldn't really make sense if that meant you couldn't toss them. But if you have a card that protects your deck from searching (e.g. Nazareth), then it makes sense that you shouldn't be able to take a card directly from your deck. (I say directly because taking from a revealed set of cards is not considered a search.)
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One way to think about it is that if you had something that protects your Good Enhancements from discard, it wouldn't really make sense if that meant you couldn't toss them.
Why not?
First, this line says that the enhancement is discarded directly from hand:
"● Unless otherwise specified, Enhancement targets come from a hand."
(To me, it doesn't make sense that Tossed enhancements are discarded from hand and never enter play, because then weapons shouldn't be tossed. But I'll ignore that for now.)
Consider this scenario:
- I have 4 Drachma Coin (https://redemption.fandom.com/wiki/Four-Drachma_Coin_(Di)) active.
- I attack with a hero and my opponent blocks with Roman Spearman.
- My hand is protected from discard abilities on opponent's cards.
At this point, any GE I toss is being discarded by my opponent's card. Why wouldn't 4DC protect my GEs in hand from being Tossed?
HSR stops my opponent from Searching, even if the word "search" doesn't appear in the ability. So why doesn't 4DC protect my hand from my opponent's discard abilities, even if the word "discard" doesn't appear in the ability?
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As I mentioned earlier, search is the only "ability" that crosses paths with other abilities. The reason being is that search doesn't do anything by itself and always has to be paired with something else - take, exchange, discard, etc.
Using search as an example or justification as to why you think toss is a discard ability is like comparing apples and oranges. Search is its own thing and unique in that sense.
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As I mentioned earlier, search is the only "ability" that crosses paths with other abilities. The reason being is that search doesn't do anything by itself and always has to be paired with something else - take, exchange, discard, etc.
So in essence, "search" now describes what other abilities (Take, Exchange, etc) are doing and isn't an ability itself. But we've chosen to keep using the word "search" exclusively on hate cards, instead of creating cards that punish Take abilities or Exchange abilities.
Seems to me that if "search" isn't going to appear on actual search abilities, then we shouldn't put "search" on any other cards either (like Jonah). Because you end up with questions like "Is Toss a discard ability?"
Because "discard" describes what happens in the Toss ability. Part of Toss is literally discarding an enhancement from hand.
(Side note: Why are we trying to make Toss its own unique ability that can't be defined by other existing abilities? Using Instead+Discard+Decrease, you can create a perfect definition of Toss.)
I'm not understanding how you can't see that the two scenarios are exactly the same in form and function. Search describes what Take and Exchange do, so something that punishes/protects from Search also punishes/protects from Take and Exchange abilities. Discard describes what Toss does, so something that punishes/protects from Discard also punishes/protects from Toss.
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(Side note: Why are we trying to make Toss its own unique ability that can't be defined by other existing abilities? Using Instead+Discard+Decrease, you can create a perfect definition of Toss.)
A while back we worked diligently to “untangle” abilities. IIRC the only exception at the end of that labor of love is search. Some abilities function similarly, or even do the same thing under the right circumstances, but they do not qualify as the same thing.
So I’m pretty certain that toss doesn’t qualify as a discard ability although it does discard.
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As I mentioned earlier, search is the only "ability" that crosses paths with other abilities. The reason being is that search doesn't do anything by itself and always has to be paired with something else - take, exchange, discard, etc.
So in essence, "search" now describes what other abilities (Take, Exchange, etc) are doing and isn't an ability itself. But we've chosen to keep using the word "search" exclusively on hate cards, instead of creating cards that punish Take abilities or Exchange abilities.
Seems to me that if "search" isn't going to appear on actual search abilities, then we shouldn't put "search" on any other cards either (like Jonah). Because you end up with questions like "Is Toss a discard ability?"
Because "discard" describes what happens in the Toss ability. Part of Toss is literally discarding an enhancement from hand.
(Side note: Why are we trying to make Toss its own unique ability that can't be defined by other existing abilities? Using Instead+Discard+Decrease, you can create a perfect definition of Toss.)
I'm not understanding how you can't see that the two scenarios are exactly the same in form and function. Search describes what Take and Exchange do, so something that punishes/protects from Search also punishes/protects from Take and Exchange abilities. Discard describes what Toss does, so something that punishes/protects from Discard also punishes/protects from Toss.
Take is the new search because they want it to be for reasons. Your arguments points out that take is not a great replacement, but it's ok. It's "ok" because search is a perfectly fine keyword AND not only does it take have a misleading connotation it is totally distinct from cards that gain control of your opponents stuff. But your posts make me think you don't really know what side you are arguing for. You're wanting a consistency that breeds more clutter. Ok? great, the Redemption is now consistently more confusing! We have to except that take is a good effort at clearing up clutter on cards, works fine irl, and should not be reversed back to search for obvious reasons.
But yeah not everyone on here has the capacity to understand your arguments. Let's not name any names ;)
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Doesn't the John Promo strictly search?
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The John promo is a full deck look, not a search.
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Just thinking out loud here. If Search doesn't do anything by itself, doesn't that mean Search is not its own thing (does not exist as an ability) but actually is an intrinsic occurrence that takes place as a byproduct of certain abilities such as Take or discard when the target area is an unknown(facedown)?
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Toss has been consistently ruled its own ability which works regardless of protection anyway
I see the argument for “if x is protected” but toss is regardless of protect so does that matter? If the reg doesn’t say that it’s a simple way to resolve this confusion
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I am quite sure toss is its seprate ability like that guys said. Toss isn't a discard ability, discard is a discard ability. ;D ;D ;D
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So an ability that discards isnt a discard ability? That is needlessly confusing
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So an ability that discards isnt a discard ability? That is needlessly confusing
Being regardless of protect does it matter?
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I dont see how protection has anything to do with this, im trying to see if you can search out coliseum with wages, there are more aspects to this than if hand protection stops toss
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I dont see how protection has anything to do with this, im trying to see if you can search out coliseum with wages
No, Coliseum doesn't have a discard ability. The abilities on that Fortress are "toss" and "negate".
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And i still believe toss should be a discard ability and i havent heard a good reason it shouldnt be other than search is messed up and just accept it doesnt set precident on how other abilities should be ruled, which i dont want to accept that Redemption is that messed up and counterintuitive
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Toss is not a discard ability because Toss in itself is its own ability. Toss is just "tossing" the enh not really discarding the enh it is putting it in the discard pile by tossing the enh.
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Because your not discarding the enh you are tossing the enh for the decrease
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And i still believe toss should be a discard ability and i havent heard a good reason it shouldnt be other than search is messed up and just accept it doesnt set precident on how other abilities should be ruled, which i dont want to accept that Redemption is that messed up and counterintuitive
Toss effect is governed by game rule.
Discard effect is a special ability.
Godspeed,
Mike
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No its in the toss ability that it discards, per the definition of toss
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From the REG:
Toss
Last Updated: 5/7/2019 (v6.0.0)
Released: 3/4/2013
How to Play
● A toss effect allows a player to play an Enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the
numbers or abilities of the Enhancement, the Enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character,
regardless of protect or immune effects.
The key to Toss is what I put in bold. Toss, in and of itself, is not a "discard ability" nor is it defined as such.
Godspeed,
Mike
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Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...
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Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...
What exactly are you hoping to accomplish by belaboring this topic?
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Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...
A mechanic that allows Toss to work "in a different way than usual", not a "discard ability" in and of itself...
Godspeed,
Mike
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Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...
If you're continuing this discussion just because you disagree with the Elder's ruling then I cannot help you but if you actually want to understand why the game works this way, I will gladly attempt to explain until you do.
Assuming the latter, think about Dominants. Dominants are discarded immediately when used but no one is advocating for all dominants to be labeled as having discard abilities. Redemption doesn't have unique language for putting cards into the discard pile from different locations so anything that results in a card going to the discard pile has to be called discard. That doesn't mean that everything that results in a card going to the discard pile has to be labeled as a discard ability.
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I would say dominates go to the discard plue the same reason enhancements do after battle: per game rule. Tossed enhancements go to discard pile because an ability discarded them, making it a discard ability. Point to me another case in redemption where something is discarded, and its either discarded by a discard ability or a game rule, becuase right now i dont see anything else in the game that just puts something in the discard pile like toss does now
Im arguing this becuase i see inconsistency in the game on this point and it worries me that the game i love is becoming impossible to understand without a degree in redemption. There will always be a some degree of learning, but the game should alsways be as intuitive as possible. If a card discards something, it should be a discard ability, plain and simple. Either that, or it should be that take(which sets persident for this ruling, as it has been ruled to include a search ability) should just a be a take ability and not inclue other abilities inside of it as it does now (each keyword ability would be only that, even if other abilities function the same) To me this would be the easier way to go about it, but i digress.
I dont mean to be combative, but i will fight for what i think is best for the game and am open to being corrected, as i have many times in the past. I would love this to be explained to me in a way that makes sense without changes having to be made
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So Sep. This Toss ability isn't discarding itself at all. The point of Tossing an enh is to toss the enh then decrease the other character in battle. It doesn't discard the enh it mearly just tosses the enh to the discard pile, to decrease the character. I mean a guy showed you the definition of toss and in nowhere does it say that it discards anything. It says it tosses the enh. please understand Sep that I appreciate that you want to try to stand up for what you think is right for redemption but in this case you have an elder and a clear definition against you.
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It says right in the def of toss the enhancement is discarded to do the decrease. If it was worded that the enhancement was put in the discard pile, that would be a differnet story, but it clearly says it discards the enhancement, which makes it a discard ability. Im not arguing it should say it puts it in the discard pile, thats just side stepping the issue, as the "put into discard pile" would need to be defined, adding another definition to the game, and this would all be just so tossed wasnt considered a discard a ability
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Well what I think we are trying to tell you is that Toss isn't a discard ability because it is called toss.
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Hey sep. I think you have all the best intentions in doing what your doing. But i think that the way your doing it is going about it isn't the best. I think we understand the confusion but we are telling you that it isn't what you think.
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If it was worded that the enhancement was put in the discard pile, that would be a differnet story, but it clearly says it discards the enhancement, which makes it a discard ability. Im not arguing it should say it puts it in the discard pile, thats just side stepping the issue, as the "put into discard pile" would need to be defined, adding another definition to the game, and this would all be just so tossed wasnt considered a discard a ability
This is precisely the issue though. The phrase "discard ability" in Redemption has been ruled in this thread to refer specifically to cards that include the word "discard" in the rules text on the card. That's the definition of "discard ability". You are of the opinion that anything with the word "discard" in the ability description should inherently be considered a "discard ability" but that's simply not how it's been defined. I do think that it would be helpful for Redemption to have different language for moving a card to the discard pile from hand vs from play but it doesn't and that's the only thing that could fix this issue while preserving current definitions.
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As far as i can tell there is no def of a discard ability, just a def of discard, so you would have to assume any ability that discards something is a discard ability, and the def of discard is to move something from its current location to the discard pile, which a toss ability does. If all we need to do is officially define a discard ability as an ability with discard in the ability, im ok with that, that makes sense with the current logic and rules in the game, but as of now i see no reason why toss isnt a discard ability other than the elders say so. I cant find the elders ruling a definition of discard ability in this thread, so if i missed it please let me know, and we should have that codified somewhere, as one of the most used cards in the game, wages, hinges on the use of discard abilities, so we should have something concrete to fall back on to define it
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I agree that it is a little confusing to see the REG say "A discard effect moves a card to owner's discard pile" (paraphrased) and that one could easily read "All cards that move a card to a discard pile are discard abilities."
But doing so would not only include toss abilities, but also decrease abilities since they discard characters sometimes. The REG even says the character "is discarded," similar to toss saying the same about the enhancement. And exchange, since sometimes exchange abilities move cards to discard. This is a looser example but hopefully you understand the point. Basically:
So an ability that discards isnt a discard ability? That is needlessly confusing
In some cases, yes.
To your point about it being needlessly confusing, it's actually pretty simple until you're aware that it's a possibility for a card to have an ability that's not explicitly stated on the card, as with search.
A new player would play Wages and not think to grab anything that doesn't say "discard." Then they'd play you and you'd trigger your Jonah after they "take" a card from Reserve, "activate" an artifact from artifact pile, or "play" a fortress from deck, and they would argue that it doesn't say "search" so how can it be a "search ability." You would then explain what a search ability is and that it's the ONLY case because there isn't really a reasonable solution to working it such that it punishes the same exact actions with the same exact keywords.
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As far as i can tell there is no def of a discard ability, just a def of discard, so you would have to assume any ability that discards something is a discard ability,
Side question for sepjazzwarrior: Are you also advocating that Set Asides played outside of battle are discard abilities?
A set-aside Enhancement can be played outside of battle during the Preparation or Discard Phase if they are
played on a character that can use the Enhancement in the active player’s territory. Set-aside Enhancements
played outside of battle are discarded after the targets are set aside. Set-aside Enhancements played in battle are
treated as regular Enhancements
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For decrease and set aside enhancements, its both game rules that cause the discard, not a special ability (that being games rules that state that characters with 0 defense are discarded and enhamements are discarded after use). Exchange is harder to explain, but given the current logic i would have to say that if it targets a discard pile it would indeed be a discard ability.
I dont want to be argumentative, so thank you to all who are sticking through this with me, im just trying to make the game make sense.
To me the reasonable solution would be that all abilities, such as take, search, play, etc, are all seperate abilities that dont contain other abilities within themselves. Yes that gets kinda messy for older cards and can make them harder to stop, such as hezzy signant rign not stopping take abilities, but in the end its much simpler and will become much easier over time, as abilities become more and more streamlined. Does anyone know why it was decided to not do it this way?
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As far as i can tell there is no def of a discard ability
It was defined here in this thread by the Elders ruling that "discard ability" refers to a card with "discard" written in its rules text. This should be in the REG, yes, but I'm sure that will happen eventually.
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And i still believe toss should be a discard ability and i havent heard a good reason it shouldnt be other than search is messed up and just accept it doesnt set precident on how other abilities should be ruled, which i dont want to accept that Redemption is that messed up and counterintuitive
You're right, there have been no good reasons toss should not be a discard ability given here, because "this is how we want it to be" is not a good reason in-and-of-itself. You must accept that Redemption is very messed up and that making toss a discard ability make is more messed up NOT less. But you're not wrong for asking the question and I don't see your posts as a sign you are critical of the Elders. Being inquisitive is good!
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I can see that it is kinda the same with different search abilities like having search and also and exchange ability even tho they are both search one of them is a different word