Author Topic: Is there any way to stop an Officer? (Read 4796 times)

EmJayBee83 · « **on:** January 01, 2009, 11:38:30 AM »

Both Recruiting Officer and War Officer have similar SAs, that say when they are defeated they get placed in your opponent's land of bondage. Is there any way that I--as a defender--can get rid of either of the Officers without them getting placed in my LoB without interrupting their SA?

Loss by the numbers -- obviously no.
Discard SA?
Remove from the Game SA?
Capture SA?
Set Aside SA?
Withdraw SA?
Shuffle/Return to Hand SA?

This isn't really a rush need. I started thinking about this when I was looking into capture abilities.

Recruiting Officer SA Hero has access to any Site. If defeated, place in opponent's Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2009, 11:44:32 AM »

Removal, cards not in the game can't be in your lob can they?
ITB then killing them works, shuffling/return to hand... I think would work, as would set asides. *Out of play*

Capture I think miiiiight work. Though...sorta defeats the purpose.

The Schaef · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2009, 12:21:14 PM »

Interrupt-and-kill works.

Shuffle and return to hand should work.

Set aside might work.

Capture is not self-defeating if you are using Raider's Camp or Demonic Stronghold.

STAMP · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2009, 12:58:52 PM »

You just need to get around the definition of "defeat".

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2009, 01:42:18 PM »

OK, I understood originally why interrupt + anything that gets rid of character would always get around the Officer's SA.

I can also understand why Remove from the Game SAs would work. (Because the information flow there is one way.)

Setting aside Set Asides (ha) for the moment, why is there a difference in result between shuffling/returning to hand SAs and discard? In both case the Officer is not in play and sitting in an area that can be, but is not traditionally targeted.

Quote from: STAMP on January 01, 2009, 12:58:52 PM

You just need to get around the definition of "defeat".

I'm not sure I understand your point here.

Quote from: REG --> Glossary of Terms --> Definitions

A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate.

If my hero is forcibly returned to territory (e.g., Temptation) has my hero been defeated?
If my hero is forcibly returned to hand (e.g., Paul's Girdle) has my hero been defeated?
If my hero has been forcibly returned to my deck (e.g., Demonic Deception) has my hero been defeated?

Note, I'm not arguing with anyone--I'm trying to understand.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2009, 01:46:05 PM »

Since being defeated means "failing to make a successful rescue," I would say that any of those options would work on him (them), since none of them nullify his SA in any way.

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2009, 05:06:22 PM »

It seems like all of the abilities mentioned so far would qualify as a "defeat"; the Hero is losing the battle in some form or another, and the Evil Character remains in battle. I'd say that the only ones that would work would be ITB+anything and any removal cards.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2009, 06:15:56 PM »

Gohanick · « **Reply #8 on:** January 01, 2009, 07:07:57 PM »

If the card remains in play after/during defeat then I think his ability would work. this question seems similar to my trust question

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #9 on:** January 01, 2009, 07:49:10 PM »

All of those are defeat BUT cards returned to deck/hand are reset.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #10 on:** January 01, 2009, 08:19:42 PM »

Hm, would that be the same with removal?

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2009, 08:23:59 PM »

Yeah, return to hand/shuffle is still getting forcibly kicked out of battle, which intuitively qualifies as a "defeat".

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2009, 08:25:35 PM »

That's what I thought at first, and removing from play doesn't negate SA's.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #13 on:** January 01, 2009, 09:34:01 PM »

Quote from: Tsavong Lah on January 01, 2009, 08:23:59 PM

Yeah, return to hand/shuffle is still getting forcibly kicked out of battle, which intuitively qualifies as a "defeat".

True but all abilities must complete before others can work. By the time the 'I got defeated time to be a ls' can activate the s.a. is reset and no longer looking for a trigger.

The Schaef · « **Reply #14 on:** January 01, 2009, 10:25:18 PM »

All of the above abilities make you the winner and him the loser, therefore all of them are defeating the Hero. The clincher is which abilities would still apply when some of them remove the character from play, it's kind of the same problem that befouls the simple explanation of Ark of the Covenant.

I guess the simplest comparison is that any ability that causes Pot's Wife to capture a Hero she defeats would also cause an Officer to be captured vis a vis defeat. That might end up being the most elegant solution, even if it's sometimes not the most intuitive, since in both cases we're predicating it on the fact that the character's capture ability was active first.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 02, 2009, 12:54:07 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on January 01, 2009, 10:25:18 PM

All of the above abilities make you the winner and him the loser, therefore all of them are defeating the Hero.

I think we are getting a bit off track here, and it's my fault. My question about the definition of "defeat" was in response to STAMPs statement that I needed to "get around" the definition of defeat.

Quote

The clincher is which abilities would still apply when some of them remove the character from play, it's kind of the same problem that befouls the simple explanation of Ark of the Covenant.

Is it the Officer being in play at the end of his defeat that determines whether he goes into opponent's LoB or not? I thought is an Officer was discarded by SA he ended up as a Lost Soul. Was my understanding incorrect?

Quote

I guess the simplest comparison is that any ability that causes Pot's Wife to capture a Hero she defeats would also cause an Officer to be captured vis a vis defeat.

And which are those? Discard and Return to Territory only, or are there others? Is there an underlying reason for which ones work and which ones don't or is it just a post hoc hack? (Hack in the good sense of the word.)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:03:07 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 02, 2009, 12:54:07 AM

Is it the Officer being in play at the end of his defeat that determines whether he goes into opponent's LoB or not? I thought is an Officer was discarded by SA he ended up as a Lost Soul. Was my understanding incorrect?

I agree that being "in play" doesn't work well as a requirement, because an officer being discarded should still become a LS.

Quote

I guess the simplest comparison is that any ability that causes Pot's Wife to capture a Hero she defeats would also cause an Officer to be captured vis a vis defeat.

This doesn't always work as a comparison though. If a character blocked by Pot's Wife gets CM'd, then they don't get captured. But if an Officer gets CM'd, they would become a LS right?

I think that an officer always becomes a LS unless an interrupt the battle card is played. That would include the officer being discarded (by numbers or SA), captured (defeats the point), converted, stalemate, removed from the game, shuffled, returned to hand or territory, etc. The officer should not become a LS if the battle is interrupted and the officer is removed from battle by any of those methods.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:10:26 AM »

Yes, that's what I think.

STAMP · « **Reply #18 on:** January 02, 2009, 11:33:44 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 02, 2009, 12:54:07 AM

Quote from: The Schaef on January 01, 2009, 10:25:18 PM
All of the above abilities make you the winner and him the loser, therefore all of them are defeating the Hero.

I think we are getting a bit off track here, and it's my fault. My question about the definition of "defeat" was in response to STAMPs statement that I needed to "get around" the definition of defeat.

Now I understand your question.

Quote from: REG Glossary

Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.

Apparently all of the refinements that have been discussed and agreed upon regarding defeat, successful/failed rescue attempts, and successful/failed battle challenges have not made their way into the REG. My apologies for pointing you in the direction of the wrong answer. You'll have to search the Rulings section to find the current definitions being used. Schaef is right. Just handle it the same way we currently handle Pot's Wife.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 02, 2009, 12:04:23 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on January 02, 2009, 11:33:44 AM

Apparently all of the refinements that have been discussed and agreed upon regarding defeat, successful/failed rescue attempts, and successful/failed battle challenges have not made their way into the REG. My apologies for pointing you in the direction of the wrong answer. You'll have to search the Rulings section to find the current definitions being used. Schaef is right. Just handle it the same way we currently handle Pot's Wife.

OK, what I found from mid-December was this...

Quote from: The Schaef on December 19, 2008, 07:24:13 AM

Outright wins and mutual by numbers are winning scenarios for the Hero.
Outright wins, stalemate, and mutual by removal are winning scenarios for the EC.
Any character which remains in battle for the winning side is considered to have defeated any opposing characters that took part in the battle. Also, when Evil Characters win by removing all characters from battle by a special ability, Evil Characters that were in battle at the moment of removal are considered to have defeated any Heroes that took part in the battle.

This is the short version of a proposed revised definition I offered, and it seemed to be met with satisfaction, but no movement has taken place.

Is this what you were thinking of?

If so, where does this differ from Prof Underwood's claim?

Quote from: Prof Underwood on January 02, 2009, 11:03:07 AM

That would include the officer being discarded (by numbers or SA), captured (defeats the point), converted, stalemate, removed from the game, shuffled, returned to hand or territory, etc. The officer should not become a LS if the battle is interrupted and the officer is removed from battle by any of those methods.

There is also the fact that the Officers only need to be defeated--they don't need to be defeated by an evil character, so CM would count also, correct?

STAMP · « **Reply #20 on:** January 02, 2009, 01:38:47 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on January 02, 2009, 12:04:23 PM

There is also the fact that the Officers only need to be defeated--they don't need to be defeated by an evil character, so CM would count also, correct?

That would be my take.

TheMarti · « **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2009, 10:11:13 AM »

This probably will just make this worse... or i just missed it.

What if you did choose the rescuer? (by playing Lies, Disuading Speech, or Sarah's jealousy... get rid of current hero, bring in new one) Does that make it "defeated?"

STAMP · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2009, 11:24:37 AM »

According to how we rule Pot's Wife, yes.

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Author Topic: Is there any way to stop an Officer? (Read 4796 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef

TheMarti