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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TheHobbit13 on March 24, 2011, 08:08:34 PM

Title: Infinite loop?
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 24, 2011, 08:08:34 PM
Crown of thorns is active and Gates is up. Block ra with wandering spirit. Gates trembling demon(or any demon with */3 or less) use ws text to place it beneath deck. Gates the bottom card lather rinse repeat. Could you theoretically stall for the rest of the game with this?
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on March 24, 2011, 08:09:19 PM
I'm pretty sure there was a rule put in place that stops stalling.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: BubbleBoy on March 24, 2011, 08:10:55 PM
I'm pretty sure there's a rule that characters cannot be discarded due to decrease during the battle phase, even if they are not in battle.

EDIT: However, if the bottom card of your deck is a non-orange demon, you could discard it with Gates and then keep placing it back under deck with WS.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Isildur on March 24, 2011, 08:13:00 PM
I'm pretty sure there's a rule that characters cannot be discarded due to decrease during the battle phase, even if they are not in battle.
+ 1 unless if that rule ever gets changed thats your answer. Though I agree with Rawrl that there has to be some sort of "if your move has no point" anti stalling move kinda thing rule out there.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on March 24, 2011, 08:14:37 PM
A cool infinite loop would be using Consider the Lillies to grab Consider the Lillies beings it isn't an exchange.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: CJSports on March 24, 2011, 09:10:39 PM
A cool infinite loop would be using Consider the Lillies to grab Consider the Lillies beings it isn't an exchange.

You can't search for a card with the same Title and text as the card you used to search, or something like that.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on March 24, 2011, 09:13:09 PM
Yes you can. You just can't exchange an exchange card with another exchange card. But Consider the Lillies isn't an exchange.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: RTSmaniac on March 24, 2011, 10:27:25 PM
In other games i play where an infinite loop is reached aka engine the player must designate a number of how many times the loop activates. this game doesnt have that and instead usually makes a rule that you cant do it aka great faith for great faith ect.

I would like to see what the PtB say about Consider the Lillies because Sauce is correct!
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 24, 2011, 10:48:20 PM
It is boring that we have to even answer these kinds of questions. Stalling is stalling. Searching for the same card is stalling. Come to my tournaments with this kind of nonsense and you'll be disqualified. Period.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on March 24, 2011, 10:57:24 PM
There's no need for elder input beings stalling is against the rules. Although I have searched and shuffled Consider the Lillies for Consider the Lilies before when I realized I didn't have a He is Risen in my discard pile. I'd sooner waste the ptb's time on far country then this.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 24, 2011, 11:12:25 PM
Although I have searched and shuffled Consider the Lillies for Consider the Lilies before when I realized I didn't have a He is Risen in my discard pile.

This wouldn't be stalling. This would be an "Oops!" moment, which we all have from time to time.  ;)

I hate searching for a card that I thought was in my deck, but ended up being on the floor under the table that I played my last game at.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: RTSmaniac on March 25, 2011, 12:05:53 AM
Place in a territory-
When you search for a card, decrease all characters in play 1/1.

consider the lilies x infinite

is this broken? is it stalling now?
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 25, 2011, 12:08:22 AM
Place in a territory-
When you search for a card, decrease all characters in play 1/1.

consider the lilies x infinite

is this broken? is it stalling now?

No. Yes.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: RTSmaniac on March 25, 2011, 12:10:12 AM
How can it be considered stalling if the game rule consisted of stating how many times the loop takes place? I do this 12 times to decrease all characters by 12/12?

sounds like it should be a silver card or red.

something with arrows flying through the air

whoo. crimson

Fiery Darts (WoW)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by an archer, place in a territory. When you search for a card, decrease all characters in play 1/1. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with Demons • Verse: Proverbs 7:23 • Availability: Unlimited booster packs (Common)
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 25, 2011, 12:12:24 AM
How can it be considered stalling if the game rule consisted of stating how many times the loop takes place? I do this 12 times to decrease all characters by 12/12?

I didn't realize that we were implementing the "state the iterations" rule.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Master KChief on March 25, 2011, 12:17:22 AM
we need to, its a quick and concise solution to infinite loops.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 25, 2011, 12:18:51 AM
I agree. It makes sense. Then it would definitely not be stalling.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: SomeKittens on March 25, 2011, 01:27:27 AM
we need to, its a quick and concise solution to infinite loops.
See my next post on this topic.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: SomeKittens on March 25, 2011, 01:28:14 AM
we need to, its a quick and concise solution to infinite loops.
See my previous post on this topic.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on March 25, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
Place in a territory-
When you search for a card, decrease all characters in play 1/1.

consider the lilies x infinite

is this broken? is it stalling now?

No. Yes.

I don't know if I agree with you on that note.

I've always regarded stalling as performing an action that doesn't progress the game.

So in that regard if such a card existed the answers would be 'Yes, very broken' and 'No, not stalling until there are no characters that can be decreased.'
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 25, 2011, 07:56:39 AM
I've always regarded stalling as performing an action that doesn't progress the game.

So in that regard if such a card existed the answers would be 'Yes, very broken' and 'No, not stalling until there are no characters that can be decreased.'

The current wording only affects cards during the battle phase, when characters can fall below zero without being discarded. Such a card could be used to decrease characters to infinite negative numbers, and that will not change the fact they will have initiative.

RTS's suggestion of a stated limit could be used to avoid such a stall by saying, "I will use this loop 25 times to decrease all of my opponent's characters in play to negative numbers."

Frankly, I think the current rule of "you cannot exchange for an exchange," has an implied understanding that "you cannot search for a search," but I realize that some search cards are better then others. Still, "you cannot search for the same card" would be an inherent default.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Josh on March 25, 2011, 08:17:11 AM
I'm pretty sure there's a rule that characters cannot be discarded due to decrease during the battle phase, even if they are not in battle.
I agree with you.  But hypothetically if they could, would the demon still be discarded by Crown of Thorns?  The reveal, place, add to battle are all part of WS' ability.  Can anything happen "during" his ability before it completes?
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 25, 2011, 08:24:32 AM
This is not a good hypothetical situation, since WS's ability only activates in battle and Crown of Thorns cannot discard a character during the Battle Phase.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Professoralstad on March 25, 2011, 10:29:43 AM
There shouldn't be a rule that you cannot search for a search. Back in the days before Nazareth, using False Peace to search for False Peace to search for False Peace etc. was pretty common. Then the chain of False Peaces was ended by something like Bearing Bad News and Momentum Change. That way you had as many FP's as you want for the next battle.

Also, Consider the Lilies is really an exchange, even if it doesn't directly say exchange. It accomplishes the same thing as it would if it said exchange.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 25, 2011, 02:48:29 PM
Also, Consider the Lilies is really an exchange, even if it doesn't directly say exchange. It accomplishes the same thing as it would if it said exchange.

But it is still a search, so the rules of exchange do not apply.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: TheHobbit13 on March 25, 2011, 06:40:51 PM
It acts just like an exchange because it goes in your deck or dc pile.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 25, 2011, 06:52:55 PM
So is this official? Are we now ruling cards based on what they "act like" and not what they actually say on the card?
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: Red on March 25, 2011, 08:46:50 PM
It is boring that we have to even answer these kinds of questions. Stalling is stalling. Searching for the same card is stalling. Come to my tournaments with this kind of nonsense and you'll be disqualified. Period.
I'd give out a game loss not a DQ.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 26, 2011, 01:24:12 AM
It is boring that we have to even answer these kinds of questions. Stalling is stalling. Searching for the same card is stalling. Come to my tournaments with this kind of nonsense and you'll be disqualified. Period.
I'd give out a game loss not a DQ.

I was exagerrating for effect.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: RTSmaniac on March 26, 2011, 09:10:50 AM
I dont know, Im kinda scared to show up to SE Regionals with such a tyrannical overlord hosting...
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on March 26, 2011, 09:40:16 AM
I wouldn't disqualify you, I would make you wear a pink tutu, have a pretend tea party with my daughter while watching the Barbie Rapunzel movie, and make you eat spinach. Your most valuable cards with be taken out of their sleeves and used as coasters for the other players in the tournament. You will then have to clean out my pool filter with your toothbrush.
Title: Re: Infinite loop?
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 26, 2011, 10:27:23 AM
Your most valuable cards with be taken out of their sleeves and used as coasters for the other players in the tournament.
Just don't touch his Pot of Manna, Brer Math Teacher.
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