Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on March 07, 2011, 06:31:50 PM
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ok I draw 2 cards off of 2Khorses and play Sitc(that i drew). Opponent plays Baptism of Jesus targeting the Evil Character. What happens to Sitc?
Two Thousand Horses (Ki)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Holder may interrupt the battle, draw 2 cards from the top of own draw pile, and play the next enhancement. • Play As: You may interrupt the battle, draw 2 and play an enhancement. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: II Kings 18:23 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)
Baptism of Jesus (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 1 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate special abilities on Evil Characters and weapons. If used by a N.T. prophet, discard an evil card. Cannot be prevented. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Matthew 3:16 • Availability: Disciples
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It stays in territory.
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The ability to play an enhancement cannot be interrupted, however the enhancement that's played can. SitC is indirectly negated and returned to deck.
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How exactly does that work? The playing of SitC is CBI, and it wasn't negated in territory.
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The ability that drew SitC was negated so both cards are returned to deck. If it was not one of the two cards drawn it would not be negated in this example, because Baptism of Jesus cannot interrupt the "play" ability of 2KH. Does that help this make sense?
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I am still confused on your answer Gabe.
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I am still confused on your answer Gabe.
Maybe you could explain what confuses you?
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I thought the playing of an enhancement couldn't be undone.
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I think drawing abilities should be ruled to be CBI, just because that would make all gameplay so much less confusing. Once I draw cards, I like to order them in my hand (because otherwise I don't know what I have to work with), and once I do that I can't remember which cards I actually drew, and I know many others have the same problem. That is not to mention the question of which order to put the cards in, which can be game-changing. I'll bet no one else would agree with me, and I know it would make some unused cards even less used, but I'd just like to vent my frustrations about this particular game mechanic.
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This is what the REG (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/default.htm?turl=defaultconditions19.htm) says:
The ability to play an enhancement cannot be interrupted.
I think maybe some people have this confused and think it means "Enhancements played by a special ability cannot be interrupted".
The REG statement only means that you cannot indirectly negate the enhancement by negating (or interrupting) the ability that allowed it to be played. You can still directly, or indirectly, negate the played enhancement by other means.
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So essentially, you cannot un-play an enhancement by negating the ability that caused it to be played, but you can un-play an enhancement by negating the ability that caused it to be drawn?
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oh man. yea def need to read that ten times.
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Wouldn't it be way easier to say "initiative cannot be interrupted?"
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ok so...
ET+Reach+AoC.
You block KoT from hand.
AoC goes on top of deck?
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ok so...
ET+Reach+AoC.
You block KoT from hand.
AoC goes on top of deck?
If it was one of the three cards you drew from Reach, yes. If you already had it in hand it stays in battle.
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So, what about Tithe? Can that be negated, and the enhancement sent to hand?
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In your example, if it's AoCP it sticks because CBI abilities always remain!
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In your example, if it's AoCP it sticks because CBI abilities always remain!
Wait, are you saying that if an enhancement is CBI, then negating the ability that drew it will not send it back to deck?
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it won't anyway.
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In your example, if it's AoCP it sticks because CBI abilities always remain!
Wait, are you saying that if an enhancement is CBI, then negating the ability that drew it will not send it back to deck?
That's correct. Negating an ability that drew a card that has since been played will negate and return that card, unless it is CBI/N.
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Not if it was played by the same SA. Play SAs are CBI by default.
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But draw abilities are not. You aren't negating the initiative, you're negating the draw.
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But even if I drew the card you couldn't send it back.
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Seriously, would it break the game to make draw abilities CBI? That would just totally clear all confusion (and TBH that's often how I play in casual games anyway, unless I'm up against top players).
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Incorrect Red and no, it wouldn't break the game, but drawing is strong enough already without making it CBI and there's no compelling reason to change the rule.
People are always confused about how placed Enhancements work, should we just make them all CBN because some people don't want to learn the rules?
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some people don't want to learn the rules?
I want to learn the rules, I just need a teacher that can help me understand.
So why do CBI/CBN cards stick to the table for even if the card that drew it was negated?
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That's the rule.
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I know thats the rule but why?
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and i know why too but i what to see if anyone else knows...I was a wierd kid like that in school. I would raise my hand and ask questions that i knew the answers to because i knew others didnt understand or even didnt want to understand FTM-
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I was a wierd kid like that in school. I would raise my hand and ask questions that i knew the answers to because i knew others didnt understand or even didnt want to understand FTM-
Lol, I do the same thing sometimes. Usually only when I feel like the teacher is not making the topic clear enough though...
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But Play next is CBI so it won't be sent back.
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But Play next is CBI so it won't be sent back.
If you step back and look at the big picture you'll see that there are actually a few different abilities happening.
1) Interrupt the battle
2) Draw 2 cards
3) Play an enhancement
4) Any abilities that result from that enhancement
Only ability #3 is CBI. I cannot indirectly negate the enhancement by only negating ability number #3.
CBI does not extend from ability #3 to the other abilities on the list. I can directly negate the enhancement that was played. I can also indirectly negate the enhancement by other means. One way to indirectly negate the played enhancement, if it was drawn, is to negate the ability that drew it. That removes it from play and returns it to the deck.
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So, what about Tithe? Can that be negated, and the enhancement sent to hand?
3) Play an enhancement
Only ability #3 is CBI. I cannot indirectly negate the enhancement by only negating ability number #3.
So, is "place" the same as "play" in CBIness? REG says:
the placed card remains with the second card until the second card is discarded, returned to the draw pile or hand, or until the placed card is removed by a special ability.
From my interpretation, place is CBI, because the special ability would have to remove the placed card, not negate the placing card.
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Only ability #3 is CBI. ...
CBI does not extend from ability #3 to the other abilities on the list.
From my understanding, CBI/P/N on part of a card extends to the whole card in all other cases. Why is this different?
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From my understanding, the limited CBI here is due to game rule, not card ability.
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From my understanding, the limited CBI here is due to game rule, not card ability.
Even so, it seems like unnecessary confusion and inconsistency to allow "limited" CBP/I/N in game rules when it's not allowed on card abilities.
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Initiative cannot be negated. Drawing can.
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Initiative cannot be negated. Drawing can.
Thanks for restating what has already been said, but that doesn't answer (or even relate to) my question.
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There is nothing convoluted or inconsistent about it. It's a four word rule.
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And I'm not arguing that part of the rule, hence why it doesn't relate to my question.
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You cannot undo the playing of an ehancement. Thus I belive Gabe is incorrect. If it's played it's sticks. You either remove the CBI on playing or you let it stick.
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I'm not sure what the thread is but this has been asked before and answered by authorities similarly to what Red is saying.
I've heard it ruled that once an enhancement is played it cannot be unplayed for any reason. The enhancement of course can be negated but it sticks. It was even ruled that if I just play the enhancement by initiative (not special ability), that also cannot be undone. I agree that CBI should mean the same thing; not some CBI working differently than others. If playing is truly CBI then like other CBI situations it can't undone even indirectly; the enhancement was played and can't be unplayed so it won't return to somewhere else.
BTW, I thought playing was made CBI partly to stop loops like Claudia, ET, Abe's Servant, and get Abe's Servant back in hand. I realize that Gabe's interpretation would not allow this but it would allow slightly modified versions like: Claudia, ET, Hozai, Abe's Servant and send Abe's Servant back, give the play from storehouse guy white or blue brigade and play Blessings from Storehouse and get it back, etc.
I don't think those are game breaking but an example like that is what I recall as part of the explanation for the ruling.
Hopefully some elders can verify this.
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We are discussing potential solutions to this on the Elder boards, we'll keep you up to date.
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this is what i was going on to galad