Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on September 10, 2010, 12:40:24 AM
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First of all, does Grapes of Wrath start a new phase, or do ongoing abilities carry over?
Second, following a side-battle, do enhancements played in the side battle travel back to the main battle?
Third, when you are losing by removal, do you only have initiative to play interrupts that will interrupt the card removing you, or do you just have carte blanche to interrupt whatever?
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Well, I'd assume it would depend on if there was another battle after. If the person gets to start a new battle, same phase. If not, it moves to the next phase because the battle is over.
Nope, get discarded.
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Well, I'd assume it would depend on if there was another battle after. If the person gets to start a new battle, same phase. If not, it moves to the next phase because the battle is over.
Nope, get discarded.
That's what I thought as well, but Gabe said different. Also, added another question.
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I thought it worked the same way Pol does, same phase but new battle. Then someone (I thought it was Bryon) ruled that Grapes works like The Long Day and begins a new battle phase. I can't seem to locate that post now...
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doesnt BbtN's still carry on into the next battle?
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doesnt BbtN's still carry on into the next battle?
Again, this is the way I've always seen it played, but Gabe is pretty reliable and he thinks it's a new phase. Now, it's possible he's basing that thought off of bad information, but I'd just like to see a couple of elders weigh in and put it to rest once and for all (and have it added to the FAQ, since this has apparently come up before and people still aren't sure).
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...but Gabe is pretty reliable...
+1 I suppose if Gabe says, it's probably right. XD
Grapes of Wrath
Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle.
I don't know, I could see a new battle as a new phase (even though it's the same phase just repeated), or as just staying in the same phase....
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I found a link where Bryon referenced (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19516.msg308457#msg308457) his ruling.
There are also two earlier threads where it's discussed.
First (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19636.msg306869#msg306869)
Second (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=18277.0)
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That seems 100% inconclusive to me, since two elders weighed in and they are not in agreement. Given that two elders gave two different answers and the majority of people said it should be same phase, plus that seems to be the way everyone plays it intuitively, I'd lean toward same phase. However, the elder who agrees with me is the elder who is most often wrong...
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I thought general consensus among the elders was that it was a new phase (Based on what Gabe and Bryon says). I'd say it makes sense either way.
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Sir Nobody dissents, and Gabe wasn't an elder during the discussions he linked to (but if he was, it would have been 2-1 in favor of new phase).
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I don't think you understand the question.
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Does it play like Ambush the City? or The Long Day?
Ambush the City (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, set all cards in battle aside (regardless of immunity). Holder may begin a new rescue attempt against same player. Once new rescue attempt is completed, the original battle resumes as a battle challenge. Cannot be negated.
The Long Day (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 2 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: If holder's rescue attempt this turn fails, holder may make an additional rescue attempt this turn.
Grapes of Wrath (TP)
Type: Lamb • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle.
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Long day.
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from the wording maybe ambush the city starts a new battle phase too?
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from the wording maybe ambush the city starts a new battle phase?
Three battle phases in a turn is pushing it.
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from the wording maybe ambush the city starts a new battle phase?
Three battle phases in a turn is pushing it.
BREAK THE GAME!
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yea ambush the city is a great card for TGT! too bad its dead.
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Dead my foot. I bet a TGT will get top 8 at nats next year,
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Dead my foot. I bet a TGT will get top 8 at nats next year,
Top 8 isn't hard, I think musicians got top 8 at nats this year.
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nice! and they got a big boost from what i hear.
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I've seen three battle(phase?)s in one turn before. All it takes is two Grapes in the same (consecutive?) phase(s?).
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Now, one question that I still have no clue about is...
We're discussing grapes in this thread, as well as side battles. What happens if Grapes is played DURING a side battle? I know this has been asked before, but I have absolutely no idea how that is ruled.
Grapes only shuffles the characters in the current battle into deck, so the original battle would be left untouched. However, grapes begins to try and start a new battle immediately...
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I was going to say that perhaps Grapes would end that side battle and start a new side battle, but then I remembered that there can only be one side battle per turn so now I'm just as lost as you.
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Now, one question that I still have no clue about is...
We're discussing grapes in this thread, as well as side battles. What happens if Grapes is played DURING a side battle? I know this has been asked before, but I have absolutely no idea how that is ruled.
Grapes only shuffles the characters in the current battle into deck, so the original battle would be left untouched. However, grapes begins to try and start a new battle immediately...
During the side battle, the main battle is put on hold. So therefore, there is no current rescuer when it is played. Ergo, no new battle can begin.
I feel like I just answered this question recently. Might be time to add it to the FAQ...
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Hmm, thats an interesting point.
Now, how about Ambush the City and Grapes? There's definitely still a rescuer there. I know I asked this before, but I don't think it was fully answered.
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Ambush the City (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, set all cards in battle aside (regardless of immunity). Holder may begin a new rescue attempt against same player. Once new rescue attempt is completed, the original battle resumes as a battle challenge. Cannot be negated.
The Long Day (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 2 / 1 • Class: None • Special Ability: If holder's rescue attempt this turn fails, holder may make an additional rescue attempt this turn.
Grapes of Wrath (TP)
Type: Lamb • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle.
why does TLD create a new phase and AtC doesnt?
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ATC resumes the original battle. You can't begin a new phase and then go back to the previous phase.
But I think I get your point. I don't think there should ever be more than one battle phase in a single turn. One phase and multiple battles seems perfectly reasonable.
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so u think the long day should only be one phase?
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Yep, and I agree.
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all in favor? AYE!
all opposed?
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I am inclined to agree to having a maximum of one battle phase per turn that may include multiple battles, as that seems the most intuitive. But since the current precedent in the REG is to have multiple battle phases, it will probably require a thorough examination of all of the implications of such a change before the change can be made.
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Hey,
why does TLD create a new phase and AtC doesnt?
Ambush the City does create a new phase. Which results in two nested battle phases that are going on at the same time. This is where we get the status quo ruling that ongoing abilities in the original battle can affect the second battle but ongoing abilities from the second battle don't affect the first.
I don't like the idea of nested phases, which is the basis of my preference for all battles happening during the same battle phase.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I am inclined to agree to having a maximum of one battle phase per turn that may include multiple battles, as that seems the most intuitive. But since the current precedent in the REG is to have multiple battle phases, it will probably require a thorough examination of all of the implications of such a change before the change can be made.
The current REG is wrong a lot, and if sufficient current reason can be given, parts of it can be disregarded. Based on this thread (where three elders say it should be same phase with no dissenters) and the thread where the initial "ruling" came from (where one elder said same phase and another elder said different phases), I'd say not only should it be the same phase, but it actually is the same phase currently.
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Hey,
Based on this thread (where three elders say it should be same phase with no dissenters) and the thread where the initial "ruling" came from (where one elder said same phase and another elder said different phases), I'd say not only should it be the same phase, but it actually is the same phase currently.
Players that are elders are still allowed to express their own opinions. The three of us saying what we think it SHOULD be doesn't affect the current ruling at all.
The REG says it's separate battle phases. I said it's separate battle phases. Gabe said it's separate battle phases. We found a quote where Bryon says it's separate battle phases. And I know from personal conversations with Berkenpas that he think's it's separate battle phases. I'm slightly baffled that you're drawing the conclusion that it's the same battle phase out of all of that.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I agree with SirNobody. The current rule is clear, there are multiple battle phases. I'm not fond of this rule and would like to see it changed but I still adhere by it until that happens.
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Ok, well if everyone's agreeing that it should be separate battles in the same phase, why hasn't it been changed? This is one thing I'll probably never understand about the PTB in Redemption is why it takes forever to change stuff that obviously needs to get changed.
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Hey,
Ok, well if everyone's agreeing that it should be separate battles in the same phase, why hasn't it been changed? This is one thing I'll probably never understand about the PTB in Redemption is why it takes forever to change stuff that obviously needs to get changed.
Everyone doesn't agree that it should be separate battles in the same phase. That's what the people posting in this thread generally think, but it's not what the PTB as a whole think.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Is this being discussed? Is this being ignored for the time being? Would it kill the PTB to at least give us indication of what is and isn't being discussed?
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Hey,
Is this being discussed? Is this being ignored for the time being? Would it kill the PTB to at least give us indication of what is and isn't being discussed?
No it's not being discussed. It was discussed a year ago (roughly) and the PTB decided by split decision that they would be separate phases. I'm not aware of any new cards, ideas, or rules in the last year that would create any new argument for changing the rule.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Well that's unfortunate, but I'm glad we agree on something for once.
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Time to say my piece(Late to the party I know) The cards that make a new battle phase(Grapes ATC and long day) don't say make a new battle phase they say new Battle so why do we do something the card doesn't say?
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Time to say my piece(Late to the party I know) The cards that make a new battle phase(Grapes ATC and long day) don't say make a new battle phase they say new Battle so why do we do something the card doesn't say?
I think it's because, currently, the battle phase can only contain one battle by game rule. So, when you are given another battle by a card ability, it has to make another phase given the rules.
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Time to say my piece(Late to the party I know) The cards that make a new battle phase(Grapes ATC and long day) don't say make a new battle phase they say new Battle so why do we do something the card doesn't say?
I think it's because, currently, the battle phase can only contain one battle by game rule. So, when you are given another battle by a card ability, it has to make another phase given the rules.
That's not tenable. This is just a bad fiat ruling. They had two, equally viable options and they picked the wrong one (like making Lost Souls an identifier instead of CBN).
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Time to say my piece(Late to the party I know) The cards that make a new battle phase(Grapes ATC and long day) don't say make a new battle phase they say new Battle so why do we do something the card doesn't say?
I think it's because, currently, the battle phase can only contain one battle by game rule. So, when you are given another battle by a card ability, it has to make another phase given the rules.
That's not tenable. This is just a bad fiat ruling. They had two, equally viable options and they picked the wrong one (like making Lost Souls an identifier instead of CBN).
Except that "wrong" is relative in this situation. They obviously thought the decision they made was the right or best one. Sure there's new evidence now, but that doesn't and can't affect their making of the decision back when they made it.
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Accidentally making the wrong decision is still making the wrong decision. It seems like the PTB have a bent for choosing the complicated option (multiple phases) over the simple option (multiple battles, same phases).
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All I'm trying to say is that it wasn't the wrong decision back then. It may be now (in your opinion), but that doesn't mean it was when it was decided. I don't want to argue this anymore, though, as it's somewhat off-topic.
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Cool, that means I'll get the last word ;D
Grapes came out last set. Not a whole lot is different now, so if it's wrong now, it was wrong then. Pretty much the big shift is that FbtN is a lot weaker now due to all the CBP.
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ok so lemme ask again cuz im confused.
i attack with TSA and u block play grapes and i attack with random hero...is the battle FBTN's or not?
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No, unfortunately.
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YEA- im always hindered when I attack with that second hero and its BTN's. No more!