Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: BanjoMan on July 05, 2017, 12:31:56 PM
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If Imitate is emulating a CBN soul such as Humble, and Moses comes into play after Imitate begins imitating, would Imitate still work as Humble would for that round?
Imitate SA: Each upkeep, you may copy the ability of another N.T. LS for one round (activate the special ability as though you just drew the card).
Humble SA: blah blah blah it's CBN.
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Imitate would continue to be CBN until the next round when it activates at which time it is negated because it is no longer copying the CBN ability and it will no longer work until Moses is removed. That's how I understand the Imitate soul. (imagine you literally copied the soul and put it in your LoB for a round)
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That's what I thought. Thanks.
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"The special ability of the copied card is applied in addition to the special ability of the copying
card." "All copy abilities are ongoing."
I don't see where in the reg it says copy abilities are cbi and if the copy ability is ongoing why couldn't it be negated in a later phase, where in the next phase it would no longer have humble souls ability?
I think this is similar to messenger of Satan bands to protected foreign wives she's cbn but can still be kicked? Where the band ability is not cbn so her cbn ability doesn't apply
Pretty sure if I put imitate on your humble then you drop Moses it's no longer copying. My only question is if it is in the same phase or the next? Probably the same phase come to think of it. Otherwise if copy is somehow cbi then it would work I just don't see that in the reg
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Copy is CBI.
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Copy is CBI.
where is that in the reg i don't see it under copy. i did some digging
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I believe that since the 'imitate' soul gained the ability of the 'humble' soul during upkeep, to negate the soul as 'imitate' that would have to be done during the same upkeep, after that you would only be able to negate the soul it has become. (If the soul it became was negatable)
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I believe that since the 'imitate' soul gained the ability of the 'humble' soul during upkeep, to negate the soul as 'imitate' that would have to be done during the same upkeep, after that you would only be able to negate the soul it has become. (If the soul it became was negatable)
Copy abilities are ongoing, not instant.
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Lost Soul (Humble)
During Battle, while opponent has more cards in hand than you, your cards cannot be prevented by opponents' card.
If Moses is being played after the activation of Humble/Imitate, wouldn't it be interrupting lost souls not preventing them?
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Either
A. Imitate becomes a cbn copy of Humble or
B. Imitate has an on going copy ability which is not cbn
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well since imitate becomes a an ability which is CBN, and you can't indirectly negate CBN (which negating the copy ability would be an indirect negate basically) I would think once it is imitated, it would be sick, because CBN always sticks
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Unless copy is somehow CBI and that information is simply missing from the REG, Moses would negate the copy ability instantly so imitate would not be copying Humble at that point. The question that I think we need an elder ruling for is whether the ability that was copied sticks around for the phase since that ability was CBN or when it goes away as soon as the original copy ability is negated.
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but it shouldn't matter if the copy is CBI, because it copied something that is CBN, and once a CBN ability is activated, there is no way to negate it
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but it shouldn't matter if the copy is CBI, because it copied something that is CBN, and once a CBN ability is activated, there is no way to negate it
That's the argument for the ability sticking around, the other argument is that while you can't directly negate the ability, negating the copy ability makes the copied ability cease to exist.
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is there any other evidence of abilities just ceasing to exist?
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is there any other evidence of abilities just ceasing to exist?
Is there any evidence of copied abilities sticking around after the copying ability is negated?
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there is evidence of CBN abilities staying around after they have been indirectly negated
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there is evidence of CBN abilities staying around after they have been indirectly negated
exactly, for the remainder of the phase..
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all in all my ruling would be that the non cbn ongoing copy ability is negated by Moses and humble is no longer imitated after the phase following Moses negated imitate
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there is evidence of CBN abilities staying around after they have been indirectly negated
Not that directly relate to copy to my knowledge. You very well could be correct, I'm not trying to say with certainty that it works one way or the other because I do not know. It would be nice to have an elder confirm one or the other (and they might be discussing it themselves since there hasn't been any response from them as of this point) since this exact scenario is very likely to come up in tournaments.
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My take is this...
The REG tells us Copy is an ongoing ability. From that we can assess that a copy ability active over multiple phases can be negated in a phase after it initially activates.
*Moses can negate Imitate.
The REG tells us "The granting of cannot be prevented to any ability cannot be negated". If something cannot be negated that means directly or indirectly. However, negating the copy ability will remove "Humble's" ability from the card, so that cards played after do not gain the CBP modifier.
*Cards granted CBP prior to Imitate being negated retain the CBP modifier.
*Cards played after the copy ability is negated do not gain the CBP modifier.
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+1
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So, to clarify, if I block Tribal Elder banded to Isaiah with Egyptian Magicians, play Evil Spirit (Ki) to convert Isaiah and then play Mimicking Miracles to copy Evil Spirit and convert Tribal Elder, could my opponent play Sign of the Rainbow to negate Mimicking Miracles (assuming David's Harp is not active anywhere)?
What about Gam's Speech instead of SotR?
Tribal Elder -- O.T. Human Hero, 6/5, bands to O.T. Hero
Isaiah -- O.T. Human Hero, 7/8, negligible ability in this scenario.
Egyptian Magicians -- Gold/PG Evil Character, 2/4, Magician, negligible ability.
Evil Spirit -- Gold Evil Enhancement, 0/0, Convert O.T. Human Hero to EC for remainder of turn. CBN if David's Harp is not in play.
Mimicking Miracles -- Gold/PG Evil Enhancement, 4/2, If used by a magician, you may copy the special ability of an enhancement until end of turn.
Sign of the Rainbow -- Blue Good Enhancement, 2/2, Negate last evil enhancement played this battle.
Gamaliel's Speech -- Place in territory: at any time discard to negate and discard last enhancement played or another enhancement in play.
I typed all this from my phone so apologies if I misremembered abilities. I looked up Mimicking Miracles so that's accurate for sure.
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Evil Spirit is CBN unless David's Harp is active so let's pretend in your example that David's Harp IS active.
I think that works unless I'm missing something.
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given the ruling above you are saying you can negate a copy ability that copied a CBN ability, so then you would be able to negate mimicking miracles that copies an evil spirit. would you be able to get SI to negate something like that?
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given the ruling above you are saying you can negate a copy ability that copied a CBN ability, so then you would be able to negate mimicking miracles that copies an evil spirit. would you be able to get SI to negate something like that?
In the imitate example Moses negates a copy ability that resulted in a CBN ongoing ability basically "disappearing" for lack of a better word since it is no longer copied. Negating the copy ability doesn't undo anything that was CBN. In the MM example above, as long as theres no David's Harp around, the copied instant ability is CBN so the copied CBN convert cannot be undone.
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I must not be catching something in this, this makes no sense to me brain...
So if imitate copied a CBN LS, it is not CBN?
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So if imitate copied a CBN LS, it is not CBN?
No, the copy ability is not CBN. The ability it copies can be. Right now that includes all of 2 Lost Souls that are CBN because they grant a CBP modifier to another card. Just because the ability it copies is CBN doesn't mean it cannot be "taken away" if the copy ability negated. In the event that happens Imitate can no longer grant CBP to future cards.
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ok I think I get it now, I assumed that a copy ability actually became the ability, but that is not the case. wow this is going to make for some confusing games...
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wow this is going to make for some confusing games...
It's pretty simple actually.
Did you play the card that gains CBP from the "copied humble ability" prior to Moses negating all Lost Souls?
1) If yes and you met the "copied humble condition" then it's CBP.
2) If no then it's not.
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wait what? that's what I was asking! if imitate activates and gets to copy a CBN LS, you are saying then its CBN? if moses is already out of course it doesn't work because it prevents imitate, but your saying if imitate goes off then its CBN?
I was referring to copy abilities in general being confusing
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wait what? that's what I was asking! if imitate activates and gets to copy a CBN LS, you are saying then its CBN? if moses is already out of course it doesn't work because it prevents imitate, but your saying if imitate goes off then its CBN?
I was referring to copy abilities in general being confusing
I modified my post to make it more clear. I was referring to the character/enhancement/etc that gains CBP, not Imitate.
Both Copy and Redirect are really cool abilities with so few viable cards that they end up being confusing because players aren't used to them. Don't hear me saying they are simple abilities, they aren't. But I get confused by them because I run into them so infrequently.
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so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?
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so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?
No, the copy ability is not CBN.
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Evil Spirit is CBN unless David's Harp is active so let's pretend in your example that David's Harp IS active.
I think that works unless I'm missing something.
I was asking if Mimicking would be negateable after copying a CBN ability and since Evil Spirit is only CBN without David's Harp then I wanted to know how it would play out WITHOUT Harp active.
If I understand correctly from other rulings and what people have said, the conversion of Tribal Elder can't be undone because Mimicking copied a CBN ability so special initiative would trigger but the CBN would make Sign of the Rainbow ineffective. Then the attacker would have the option to use Gam's Speech which could negate and discard Mimicking, thus undoing the copy, but not undoing the convert cuz it was CBN and thus cannot be indirectly negated. Is this all right and make sense?
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so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?
Which card (The soul or Moses) comes down first doesn't change the situation at all. The copy ability is never CBN. When Moses comes down the copy ability is negated and the copied ability ceases to exist.
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so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?
Which card (The soul or Moses) comes down first doesn't change the situation at all. The copy ability is never CBN. When Moses comes down the copy ability is negated and the copied ability ceases to exist.
To add to this: The only way that a card would retain that CBP is if it had gained it from the copied effect before Moses came into play and before that LS is negated and is no longer copying the ability. But Imitate's copy of Humble would not grant it CB-anything. As far as I know the only way any LS is CB-anything without granting CBP is the Liners which can't be copied (and I am glad for that. The last thing we need is that mess.)
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Humble LS is a mandatory ongoing ability. Even if Imitate's Copy ability is negated mid-phase and is no longer copying Humble, that doesn't change the fact that Humble's ability was active earlier in the phase, is mandatory, is ongoing, and is CBN.
Seems to me that Humble's ability would persist for the remainder of the phase...?
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Humble LS is a mandatory ongoing ability. Even if Imitate's Copy ability is negated mid-phase and is no longer copying Humble, that doesn't change the fact that Humble's ability was active earlier in the phase, is mandatory, is ongoing, and is CBN.
Seems to me that Humble's ability would persist for the remainder of the phase...?
Except it doesn't make Imitate CBN and specifically that copy ability.
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it just seems weird for a CBN ability to just disappear like that, it seems counterintuitive to everything else in the game where once a CBN ability activates, it cannot be undone
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it just seems weird for a CBN ability to just disappear like that, it seems counterintuitive to everything else in the game where once a CBN ability activates, it cannot be undone
It's because Copy is an ongoing effect. It's not Instant so it can be stopped at any point.
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but it still brought a CBN ability into play. and that CBN ability is leaving play, which is a first in redemption
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but it still brought a CBN ability into play. and that CBN ability is leaving play, which is a first in redemption
It works the same way with any other copy ability that could copy a CBN ongoing effect. There just hasn't been a card with a copy ability widely played enough in the past for this ruling question to come up.
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yea, I think its weird that all copy abilities work that way...
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Evil Spirit is CBN unless David's Harp is active so let's pretend in your example that David's Harp IS active.
I think that works unless I'm missing something.
I was asking if Mimicking would be negateable after copying a CBN ability and since Evil Spirit is only CBN without David's Harp then I wanted to know how it would play out WITHOUT Harp active.
If I understand correctly from other rulings and what people have said, the conversion of Tribal Elder can't be undone because Mimicking copied a CBN ability so special initiative would trigger but the CBN would make Sign of the Rainbow ineffective. Then the attacker would have the option to use Gam's Speech which could negate and discard Mimicking, thus undoing the copy, but not undoing the convert cuz it was CBN and thus cannot be indirectly negated. Is this all right and make sense?
So... Can we mimic the miracles and more importantly can we negate said miracles? Or just the mimicking of them?
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Evil Spirit is CBN unless David's Harp is active so let's pretend in your example that David's Harp IS active.
I think that works unless I'm missing something.
I was asking if Mimicking would be negateable after copying a CBN ability and since Evil Spirit is only CBN without David's Harp then I wanted to know how it would play out WITHOUT Harp active.
If I understand correctly from other rulings and what people have said, the conversion of Tribal Elder can't be undone because Mimicking copied a CBN ability so special initiative would trigger but the CBN would make Sign of the Rainbow ineffective. Then the attacker would have the option to use Gam's Speech which could negate and discard Mimicking, thus undoing the copy, but not undoing the convert cuz it was CBN and thus cannot be indirectly negated. Is this all right and make sense?
So... Can we mimic the miracles and more importantly can we negate said miracles? Or just the mimicking of them?
If MM copies a CBN ability that removes a character from battle (or any instant effect), that removal cannot be undone, regardless of which card/ability you try to target.
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I'm sorry if I'm not just getting this, but why does it make a difference if its an ongoing ability or a instant ability? why can you negate (or make vanish...because that's a thing in redemption now) the ongoing CBN ability that is copied but not the instant CBN ability?
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I'm sorry if I'm not just getting this, but why does it make a difference if its an ongoing ability or a instant ability? why can you negate (or make vanish...because that's a thing in redemption now) the ongoing CBN ability that is copied but not the instant CBN ability?
In both cases, you aren't negating (undoing) anything. In the case of the ongoing ability, it is simply not longer active from that point onward; nothing is undone. In the case of the instant ability, you can still negate MM and it will no longer be copying the card, but that doesn't undo the instant ability that completed earlier.
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so its no longer active because the ability that brought into play was negated, isn't that just an indirect negate?
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so its no longer active because the ability that brought into play was negated, isn't that just an indirect negate?
By saying brought into play you're trying to compare it to a play ability, which is not a valid comparison. The ability of Humble is causing another ability to exist. Humble being negated causes that ability to cease to exist. Nothing about the copied ability matters; after Humble is negated the copied ability is gone.
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ok that makes more sense, thank you for explaining it