Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: redemptioncousin on December 08, 2009, 03:18:24 PM
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Okay, I know this has come up before, but is I am Creator allowed to trigger when a player enters battle since there is no "upon activation" clause???
I am Creator- "If you do not have a hero in your territory or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns."
Thanks,
Matt
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I believe since it doesn't specify, it's assumed to read "Upon activation", but I could be wrong.
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That is the way I always understood it.
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It was ruled at Nationals (by Bryon I believe) that it triggers when a player enters battle.
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...and therefore the reason this should be addressed... 2 people think it doesn't work and 2 people do...
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It is not an understood "Upon Activation" clause. It can trigger when an RA is made.
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Let's get back to the point of the card, it's a Covenant that lets you get a hero out when your hand has been less than kind to you. How could it be used in battle? Where would it fit in the initiative if it's not upon activation?
1. Bob makes RA with hero that can band and no other heroes in play.
2. Weeble blocks.
3. Bob uses the ability from his already active artifact to move a hero to territory who his hero can band in?
Doesn't all banding have to happen before initiative passes? I fail to see the argument...
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When the single hero is in territory, I Am Creator cannot activate. When the hero enters battle, there is not a hero in "territory or set-aside area" as I Am Creator specifies, and therefore, you can search for a 2nd hero.
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I don't understand why this would be anything other than an ability that activates when the artifact activates. Is it because of the stated once per turn limit?
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When the single hero is in territory, I Am Creator cannot activate. When the hero enters battle, there is not a hero in "territory or set-aside area" as I Am Creator specifies, and therefore, you can search for a 2nd hero.
Agreed, but again, if you have a hero in territory, it can't be used, too bad. I understand also that a hero leaving territory to enter battle has the potential to satisfy the condition, but doesn't the defender get to block before the ability of the covenant would activate and not allowing for a band, or is this akin to Hidden Treasures where the ability is joined with the hero...I guess I am still lost as to why you would want to bring a character to territory while you are going into battle...unless you sacrifice the hero, and if that's the case, do it next turn...
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But next turn is just that... next turn. You can have a different artifact up and everything.
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Ok, I can go with that. So the question is, can the effect of I am Creator be delayed until a condition is met, or does the condition need to be met upon activation...
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It used to be the case that you could use IamC when your only hero entered battle. However, I remember a thread not too long ago that ruled that this was no longer true.
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It has always been able to be used when your Hero (or banded Heroes) entere battle.
Tim Maly in his vast understanding of Redemption rules feels it shouldn't work that way. During our game at Nationals, he called Bryon over who stated that it still works during battle, but that might change after Nationals. I have yet to see anything officially stating that it has changed. I expect that's part of the new REG that we're getting closer to seeing each day.
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So as of now IamC lets you get and evil character out of your deck when your only hero goes in battle but you cannot band him in. Correct?
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So as of now IamC lets you get and evil character out of your deck when your only hero goes in battle but you cannot band him in. Correct?
No, it searches for a Hero, not an EC. ::) ;D
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I expect that's part of the new REG that we're getting closer to seeing each day.
There is no new REG. It was all a hoax. That's why the author was listed as "Lucy."
On a related note, recently leaked emails from the "Secret Moderator Boards" detail the coverup and purposefully deceptive misinformation.
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new REG: as real as astronauts landing on the moon.
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Hey,
We have, since the card was released, allowed players to use it after attacking with their only hero.
If you look at the ability you'll see that it is an instant, conditional, non-optional ability. The rule for instant, conditional, non-optional abilities is that when they activate, if the condition is met they take effect, if not they do nothing. All other such abilities (even ones on other covenants and artifacts) only work when they are activated, there is no provision for a delayed use.
As such, we have been ruling incorrectly since the card was released by saying that players could use it after attacking with their only hero.
This came up a couple weeks before nationals 2009. And the above was the general direction of that thread. It then came up in a game at nationals between Gabe and I. I asked Bryon (the Judge) about it and he said that it is probably true that you shouldn't be allowed to use it as a response to attacking, but that he was going to allow it because that was how it has always been ruled in the past and he didn't want to reverse the ruling at nationals.
This issue will not be addressed in the upcoming REG.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
There is no new REG. It was all a hoax.
It is by far the greatest hoax I have ever masterminded.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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It is by far the greatest hoax I have ever masterminded.
I don't know. I thought the crop circles were pretty good, too.
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Even better than Angel of Deliverance allowing you to make multiple resuces in one turn :)
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Hey,
Even better than Angel of Deliverance allowing you to make multiple resuces in one turn :)
Or Pharaoh's Magicians putting a card from your hand into your hand.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
We have, since the card was released, allowed players to use it after attacking with their only hero.
If you look at the ability you'll see that it is an instant, conditional, non-optional ability. The rule for instant, conditional, non-optional abilities is that when they activate, if the condition is met they take effect, if not they do nothing. All other such abilities (even ones on other covenants and artifacts) only work when they are activated, there is no provision for a delayed use.
As such, we have been ruling incorrectly since the card was released by saying that players could use it after attacking with their only hero.
This came up a couple weeks before nationals 2009. And the above was the general direction of that thread. It then came up in a game at nationals between Gabe and I. I asked Bryon (the Judge) about it and he said that it is probably true that you shouldn't be allowed to use it as a response to attacking, but that he was going to allow it because that was how it has always been ruled in the past and he didn't want to reverse the ruling at nationals.
This issue will not be addressed in the upcoming REG.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Are we going to change the way we play it?
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This issue will not be addressed in the upcoming REG.
So the current ruling is wrong, but the new REG won't address it? Then what will?
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Hey,
This issue will not be addressed in the upcoming REG.
So the current ruling is wrong, but the new REG won't address it? Then what will?
I'm pretty sure you can't find anything in the current REG that supports the interpretation that I am Creator can be used during battle. Players believe that not because the REG say it but because at one point a playtester slipped up and said it and we didn't catch the mistake fast enough. If there is anything in the REG that supports that interpretation, I'm pretty sure that support will be removed in the new REG (which I guess might constitute addressing it indirectly).
Consider:
Does I am Creator have an instant or ongoing ability? (the new REG will actually make this a more obvious) Instant
When do instant abilities take effect? When they are activated.
When do abilities on artifacts (or cards used like artifacts) activate? When you turn the artifact face up on your artifact pile.
Those are all fairly simple rules that you can find in the REG/Rulebook, right? And they lead very directly to the conclusion that if you use I am Creator as an artifact its ability takes effect during your prep phase.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Those are all fairly simple rules that you can find in the REG/Rulebook, right? And they lead very directly to the conclusion that if you use I am Creator as an artifact its ability takes effect during your prep phase.
So you're saying that the ruling on IamC should change based on the current rules. If this is true, then PTB should post here and confirm this. Considering this is going against years of tradition, it would probably take either Bryon, Mike, or Rob to overturn things.
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hey would this help iac? meal in emmaus flips down an art and then flip up iac and you have no heros expct in battle so i search the deck correct?
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That certainly is not broken, no.
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i realized that to but does it work?
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But of course. Meal in Emmaus is underrated.
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So as of now IamC lets you get and evil character out of your deck when your only hero goes in battle but you cannot band him in. Correct?
No, it searches for a Hero, not an EC. ::) ;D
That is what i meant my bad :P
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When Angel Wars released, we were all still a little fuzzy about when you could use an instant ability on an artifact. Unholy Writ is instant, and it could be used "at any time" in battle, so some of use (myself included) ruled that I Am Creator could be used "at any time" as well. In fact, that was the intent of the card. At that time, if an ability was supposed to happen only when activated (and only once per activation), it began "On activation,..."
Over the years since Angel Wars, we have cleaned up the fuzzy mess of instant abilities on artifacts, and made this one distinction: Optional instant abilities that do not specify a time to activate are treated as "at any time." Non-optional instant abilities must complete when activated.
That very important distinction has pulled some of the teeth out of I Am Creator, but it makes for more consistent game play.
So, no, I Am Creator cannot be used at any time other than when it is activated. Sorry. :(
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nooooooooooooooooo!but i can meal at emaus it all i want.
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So, no, I Am Creator cannot be used at any time other than when it is activated. Sorry. :(
Thanks for clearing yet another tricky one up for us Bryon :)