Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: kariusvega on July 22, 2017, 02:47:19 PM
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Play
A card is considered “played” if it meets these criteria:
● You play an enhancement by attempting to activate its special ability (or numbers in
battle)
● You play a character or multicolor site by putting it in your territory or your side of the
battle.
An ability cannot gain cannot be prevented retroactively; it has cannot be prevented when played or not at all.
it seems to me these are the same things, they are being played into battle, and for the same reasons should both be able to gain cbp from the humble soul
please explain
*I've edited out the personal stuff, but will leave the question as long as conversation remains productive and doesn't descend into name calling and finger pointing* - RDT
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The phrase "An ability cannot gain cannot be prevented retroactively; it has cannot be prevented when played or not at all" says it all. When you play an Armor of God in territory, you are playing the GE. That AoG is "played" at that moment and never afterwards, as long as it remains in play or set-aside.
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Well that means the reg would have to say play from hand
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So if I "play" sabbath breaker into my territory and its not cbp and I block with humble active does it gain cbp?
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Sabbath breaker wouldn't be played because his ability doesn't activate when placed in territory. if you played a territory class character in territory with humble active it would remain CBP until it enters battle, where it's ability would reactive and only be CBP if humble is still active. if Sabbath breaker enters battle while humble is active he would be CBP
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Okay I guess my misunderstandings are in the differences between playing cards and activating special abilities
Thanks sep! I think that really helps me understand this a little better
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No problem, we have all had that one "rule" that gives us trouble, mine is copy abilities...
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I realized yesterday what (I think) the issue is, which I believe may need to be corrected.
An ability cannot gain cannot be I/P/N retroactively; it has cannot be I/P/N when played or not at all.
I believe that needs to say "activated," not "played" --abilities are activated, not played, so those lines in the entries are simply worded incorrectly and thus causing the confusion.
If put in territory, Sabbath Breaker is "played" as a character, however his ability has not yet activated. If he blocks with Humble LS in effect, then his ability activates and can then gain CBP at that moment.
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I realized yesterday what (I think) the issue is, which I believe may need to be corrected.
An ability cannot gain cannot be I/P/N retroactively; it has cannot be I/P/N when played or not at all.
I believe that needs to say "activated," not "played" --abilities are activated, not played, so those lines in the entries are simply worded incorrectly and thus causing the confusion.
If put in territory, Sabbath Breaker is "played" as a character, however his ability has not yet activated. If he blocks with Humble LS in effect, then his ability activates and can then gain CBP at that moment.
That makes a world of a difference thanks a lot for walking me through this it all makes way more sense now
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I realized yesterday what (I think) the issue is, which I believe may need to be corrected.
An ability cannot gain cannot be I/P/N retroactively; it has cannot be I/P/N when played or not at all.
I believe that needs to say "activated," not "played" --abilities are activated, not played, so those lines in the entries are simply worded incorrectly and thus causing the confusion.
If put in territory, Sabbath Breaker is "played" as a character, however his ability has not yet activated. If he blocks with Humble LS in effect, then his ability activates and can then gain CBP at that moment.
So if I blocked with an EC earlier in the game and I blocked later with humble lost soul out the EC is not CBP? That's a lot to keep track of. If you say no to this then when Fruits/Armor's enter battle they can gain cbi with ram's horn.
Honestly I think the retroactive rule means when you activate an ability that ability cannot gain I/P/N after. And then the rule applies the next time you activate the ability. It's just not written well.
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I realized yesterday what (I think) the issue is, which I believe may need to be corrected.
An ability cannot gain cannot be I/P/N retroactively; it has cannot be I/P/N when played or not at all.
I believe that needs to say "activated," not "played" --abilities are activated, not played, so those lines in the entries are simply worded incorrectly and thus causing the confusion.
If put in territory, Sabbath Breaker is "played" as a character, however his ability has not yet activated. If he blocks with Humble LS in effect, then his ability activates and can then gain CBP at that moment.
So if I blocked with an EC earlier in the game and I blocked later with humble lost soul out the EC is not CBP? That's a lot to keep track of. If you say no to this then when Fruits/Armor's enter battle they can gain cbi with ram's horn.
When an ability activates it has CBX or not. Sabbath Breaker activates each time it enters battle (if somehow it didn't kill itself after the first time) and could be CBP in one battle but not in another because those are completely different activations of the ability. Armor doesn't gain CBI when it enters battle because nothing is activating when it enters battle. It activates when you first put it down and stays activate continously in and out of battle. This has already been gone over in multiple threads.
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I noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.
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I noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.
What you think or believe doesn't have anything to do with whether you're wrong or not. Activating a trigger and activating an ability are completely different things. The triggered abilities are ongoing abilities that begin at the same time as all the others, when the enhancements are placed. That's when they have CBI or not.
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I noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.
Triggering an ability is not the same as activating an ability. An ability cannot be triggered unless it is already active.
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I noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.
Triggering an ability is not the same as activating an ability. An ability cannot be triggered unless it is already active.
I think the source of confusion around this subject for most people is the liberal use of the word "activate" in the description of how triggered abilities work.
"When the given situation occurs, a triggered ability activates" should probably be "When the given situation occurs, a triggered ability is triggered" (It sounds a little weird to say but it means the same thing and doesn't use a word that is already used to describe something completely different)
"Optional triggered abilities may only be activated" -> "Optional triggered abilities may only be triggered"
"If two optional triggered abilities activate at the same time" -> "If two optional triggered abilities are triggered at the same time"
And so on for each use of the word "activate" in the triggered ability entry.
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Agreed...that probably needs some re-working as well.
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I noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.
What you think or believe doesn't have anything to do with whether you're wrong or not. Activating a trigger and activating an ability are completely different things. The triggered abilities are ongoing abilities that begin at the same time as all the others, when the enhancements are placed. That's when they have CBI or not.
Triggered abilities are not ongoing inherently, because triggered abilities may have instant effects. Triggers are ongoing, and the effects remain dormant until the condition of the trigger is met. For something to be ongoing it has to be active; an ability cannot persist if it hasn't been activated yet.
I am not going to try to understand this anymore because clearly there is some overarching understanding of this scenario that is not written into the rules. Guardian has appealed to such understanding "An ability cannot be triggered unless it is already active." but has not justified it within the rules and we both know, to some degree, that abilities that are active have to be in effect by definition. Yet, I don't get to make up rules, Elders do. So I have no problem applying this, but eventually intentions must be verbalized clearly and without contradiction otherwise there are going to be hidden rules.
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Triggered abilities are not ongoing inherently
A triggered ability is a type of ongoing ability
Effects of abilities can't be CBX separately from the ability they are a part of. A triggered ability and it's resulting triggered effect are the same ability and have CBX or not together.
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Yes it is a type of ongoing ability in the sense that it persists while not being active. " The Trigger" is different from "the triggered ability" is different from "Trigger abilities". So probably not the best wording in the REG. I think what is meant to be said is "Trigger abilities are a type of ongoing abilities" because when the actual triggered ability is being explained it is first delayed (delayed abilities are not ongoing) and can have an ongoing or instant effect. Basically I am hearing the argument for armors/fruits not being activated again as: Triggered abilities are ongoing. They activate in territory and remain active but do not take effect until the given condition of the trigger is met.
But Triggered abilities are not ongoing, because the effects of the trigger are not implemented when you play the card. What is ongoing is the condition of the trigger, which activates and persists until it is met. Triggered abilities are a type of ongoing ability because they persist until the condition of the trigger is met then activate after (and may still if the effect of the trigger is ongoing), but not ongoing in the sense that they activate and remain active when you play the card.
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Yes it is a type of ongoing ability in the sense that it persists while not being active. " The Trigger" is different from "the triggered ability" is different from "Trigger abilities". So probably not the best wording in the REG. I think what is meant to be said is "Trigger abilities are a type of ongoing abilities" because when the actual triggered ability is being explained it is first delayed (delayed abilities are not ongoing) and can have an ongoing or instant effect. Basically I am hearing the argument for armors/fruits not being activated again as: Triggered abilities are ongoing. They activate in territory and remain active but do not take effect until the given condition of the trigger is met.
But Triggered abilities are not ongoing, because the effects of the trigger are not implemented when you play the card. What is ongoing is the condition of the trigger, which activates and persists until it is met. Triggered abilities are a type of ongoing ability because they persist until the condition of the trigger is met then activate after (and may still if the effect of the trigger is ongoing), but not ongoing in the sense that they activate and remain active when you play the card.
The condition of the trigger and the effect of the trigger are together one ability. That one ability either has CBX or not. Since the condition of the trigger activates when the enhancement is played and remains active indefinitely, that is when CBX is determined. How/when the triggered effect takes place is irrelevant.
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If the condition and the effect of the ability are one ability and you activate them together, then there is a contradiction when these placed enhancements are both ongoing and instant because you can negate ongoing abilities across phases but not instant abilities.
What about The Holy Spirit, or any placed enhancement that has a search/draw trigger, and music leader ? If the THS activates together at one time then an opponent's music leader would not be triggered each time a NT hero enters battle and you search because THS's ability was already activated and not activated again when a NT hero enters battle.
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If the condition and the effect of the ability are one ability and you activate them together, then there is a contradiction when these placed enhancements are both ongoing and instant because you can negate ongoing abilities across phases but not instant abilities.
What about The Holy Spirit, or any placed enhancement that has a search/draw trigger, and music leader ? If the THS activates together at one time then an opponent's music leader would not be triggered each time a NT hero enters battle and you search because THS's ability was already activated and not activated again when a NT hero enters battle.
I fail to see how anything I've said results in a contradiction or results in ability use triggers not working. The triggered effect is still an instant effect that begins, completes, triggers things, and can be interrupted. The reason the instant effects don't gain CBI from Ram's Horn is because triggering a triggered ability does not meet the definition of playing an enhancement.
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If the condition and the effect of the ability are one ability and you activate them together, then there is a contradiction when these placed enhancements are both ongoing and instant because you can negate ongoing abilities across phases but not instant abilities.
What about The Holy Spirit, or any placed enhancement that has a search/draw trigger, and music leader ? If the THS activates together at one time then an opponent's music leader would not be triggered each time a NT hero enters battle and you search because THS's ability was already activated and not activated again when a NT hero enters battle.
I fail to see how anything I've said results in a contradiction or results in ability use triggers not working. The triggered effect is still an instant effect that begins, completes, triggers things, and can be interrupted. The reason the instant effects don't gain CBI from Ram's Horn is because triggering a triggered ability does not meet the definition of playing an enhancement.
Music leader has the word "use" too. If you are not playing the armors in battle nothing is being triggered when you draw/search from the effect of the armor's trigger. Similarly, you are not using THS either when the search is triggered. Notice that Music leader does not say "If opponent searches".
I am starting to think uses/used and play are distinct terms or that music leader is being played incorrectly when he triggers off triggers that have already been played in territory. Honestly "use" to me means activating a cards ability, and use to you means playing a card. Either way You say that instant effects of triggers don't activate:
"Armor doesn't gain CBI when it enters battle because nothing is activating when it enters battle."
So how does the "uses" on ML trigger from a search by an armor/fruit in battle? Same thing with THS, by your logic, the search is not activating or being played. If nothing is activated being played/used then how does ML trigger?
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If the condition and the effect of the ability are one ability and you activate them together, then there is a contradiction when these placed enhancements are both ongoing and instant because you can negate ongoing abilities across phases but not instant abilities.
What about The Holy Spirit, or any placed enhancement that has a search/draw trigger, and music leader ? If the THS activates together at one time then an opponent's music leader would not be triggered each time a NT hero enters battle and you search because THS's ability was already activated and not activated again when a NT hero enters battle.
I fail to see how anything I've said results in a contradiction or results in ability use triggers not working. The triggered effect is still an instant effect that begins, completes, triggers things, and can be interrupted. The reason the instant effects don't gain CBI from Ram's Horn is because triggering a triggered ability does not meet the definition of playing an enhancement.
Music leader has the word "use" too. If you are not playing the armors in battle nothing is being triggered when you draw/search from the effect of the armor's trigger. Similarly, you are not using THS either when the search is triggered. Notice that Music leader does not say "If opponent searches".
I am starting to think uses/used and play are distinct terms or that music leader is being played incorrectly when he triggers off triggers that have already been played in territory. Honestly "use" to me means activating a cards ability, and use to you means playing a card. Either way You say that instant effects of triggers don't activate:
"Armor doesn't gain CBI when it enters battle because nothing is activating when it enters battle."
So how does the "uses" on ML trigger from a search by an armor/fruit in battle? Same thing with THS, by your logic, the search is not activating or being played. If nothing is activated being played/used then how does ML trigger?
Use and play are completely different things.
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I agree, I am just using your logic:
The majority of other uses of the word "use" are just English and in the case of Ram's Horn mean played by.
So in Ram's Horn's case they are the exact same but every other cases used is something different than played? :scratch:
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I agree, I am just using your logic:
The majority of other uses of the word "use" are just English and in the case of Ram's Horn mean played by.
So in Ram's Horn's case they are the exact same but every other cases used is something different than played? :scratch:
Ram's Horn was made before the current definitions of those words were created. Ram's Horn really says "Enhancements played" since its definitionally impossible for enhancements to be used. It was already explained in the previous thread that enhancements are played while abilities are used. The difference between played and use is clear if you read their respective REG entries.
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If Ram's Horn's wording is definitionally impossible, it doesn't do anything except site removal without an errata. Intention doesn't matter when interpreting abilities, just in making erratas which are used sparingly. If you want to argue like that who's to say that Ram's Horn shouldn't say "Abilities on enhancements used by Warrior class heroes.." When Guardian talked about it earlier in another thread he mentioned that if it were made today.... and I just assumed exchanging "played by" for "used by" was for clarity's sake. I see now that the card does not function haha
The point still stands, however, about THS and ML. If triggers are not activated when the condition are met and their effects just "occur" then how can someone "use" the search ability on THS when it is triggered? Doesn't use mean activated?
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If Ram's Horn's wording is definitionally impossible, it doesn't do anything except site removal without an errata. Intention doesn't matter when interpreting abilities, just in making erratas which are used sparingly. If you want to argue like that who's to say that Ram's Horn shouldn't say "Abilities on enhancements used by Warrior class heroes.." When Guardian talked about it earlier in another thread he mentioned that if it were made today.... and I just assumed exchanging "played by" for "used by" was for clarity's sake. I see now that the card does not function haha
The point still stands, however, about THS and ML. If triggers are not activated when the condition are met and their effects just "occur" then how can someone "use" the search ability on THS when it is triggered? Doesn't use mean activated?
Use does not mean activated. Use (in short) means complete. I'd recommend you go and read the REG entries relevant to the discussion since it doesn't seem like you have.
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I can't find it under "U" or types of abilities. I am not sure where else to look. This is the right link? https://www.cactusgamedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/REG_PDF_4.1.2.pdf (https://www.cactusgamedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/REG_PDF_4.1.2.pdf)
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I can't find it under "U" or types of abilities. I am not sure where else to look. This is the right link? https://www.cactusgamedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/REG_PDF_4.1.2.pdf (https://www.cactusgamedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/REG_PDF_4.1.2.pdf)
"Use an Ability" is under "U." Last entry before the W's.
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the W's!!!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LsAHxgmCe6E/hqdefault.jpg)
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I read it, use makes more sense, however, there may be a better phrase to use then "activated" for optional abilities as apparently triggers are not activated. Or are triggers allowed to be activated again now that Ram's Horn has outdated wording? ::)
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I read it, use makes more sense, however, there may be a better phrase to use then "activated" for optional abilities as apparently triggers are not activated. Or are triggers allowed to be activated again now that Ram's Horn has outdated wording? ::)
Yes everywhere the REG refers to "activating" a trigger should say "triggering" instead to avoid using a word already defined as something else.
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My two cents on this thread, the fact that a thread like this even exists kind of proves the confusion of rules in regards to not being clearly defined anywhere but a massive document no one has time to read. Again, rules ought to be intuitive to the game, otherwise it's fun for very few people.
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My two cents on this thread, the fact that a thread like this even exists kind of proves the confusion of rules in regards to not being clearly defined anywhere but a massive document no one has time to read. Again, rules ought to be intuitive to the game.
That's simply not possible. Magic doesn't do it either. Magic defines its keywords and a few other simple things on the cards but there are at least as many unintuitive things in MtG and Redemption if not more. For example the other day I saw a lethal puzzle where the solution ended up being to use an activated ability on an artifact to clone a creature that could pay an energy to give itself flying, use that ability, then while this is all still on the stack to use the clone ability a second time to copy a 10/10 (normally that would not have flying) and the resulting effect is that the flying gained by the activated ability of the first cloned creature applied to the cloned 10/10. I've read the relevant rules and that still wasn't remotely clear to me as a possibility of that interaction but someone was able to cite the rules that made it work that way. Every card game has complicated and unintuitive interactions and it's absolutely impossible to put much beyond basic ability descriptions on the cards themselves.
Having to look up long definitions of ability interactions is not a problem, the only problem is that for Redemption, many of those definitions are incomplete or even entirely non-existent.