Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on June 22, 2016, 12:18:56 PM
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There are currently some issues with the rest toss is being defined. Since it is the toss card, not the card being tossed, that targets the character being tossed on, toss has an implied decrease and sometimes implied discard ability. This means Agabus can interact with toss cards for infinite instant recursion of Peace. Furthermore, it means Colosseum, not the card being tossed, is harming a toss target, so any card that is triggered off being targeted by evil cards will trigger off a toss of a good enhancement, which sounds weird.
The alternative of having toss target hand or deck is still problematic for the same reasons, just worse.
Another problem is the case of a card eligible for toss that also has interrupt ability, allowing it to be played during special initiative and potentially fizzle a battle-winner. For this reason, my personal best interests are served by leaving things the way they are, but I propose a third alternative.
Consider the way CBI/P/N and cards that grant that ability interact with cards being played. The playing of a card is inherently CBN. To be continued...
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The playing of a card being CBN means that if you play Jordan Interrupted and then another card, that card will not be negated or returned to hand if JI is negated. With CBI/P/N, a card exists in those states when played and can never change. That's why Gam's Speech played on TC Peter and continues to be CBN in future phases. Finally, abilities that grant CBI/P/N are inherently CBN (although there could be a lot to be said for making that CBI). The reasons why all these rules were made for CBI/P/N and Play are also true of toss. Here is what I propose from precedent as well as sheer consistency:
"Tossed" is a state, like CBI/P/N. When a card is played, before its SA resolves, check to see if it will be targeted for toss (just like we do with enhancements played on Paul, for example). If so, that becomes the state of the card and it (not the card giving it toss) decreases a character in play by its offense and then goes to Discard. Toss does not have an implied discard, play, or decrease ability.
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I don't see why recursion with Agabus is a problem. Peace can already be recurred infinitely with HS.
I'm not sure exactly what problems your solution fixes. As far as I know, interrupt abilities are still tossed in SI.
In SI, have to interrupt the card targeting you or causing the game rules to remove you from battle. Why shouldn't it be the card with the toss ability?
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For the reasons stated in the OP.
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Which reasons? I'm not exactly sure why any of the things you mention in the OP are a problem. They are just how toss works.
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For what it's worth, I actually see a lot of merit in defining "Toss" as a Modifier. For those who aren't aware - CBP, CBI, CBN, Regardless, and Instead make up the current Modifier family. I don't have time right now to explain how I think this could work, but I'll address it later.
For now, + 1 :D