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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Red Warrior on August 04, 2010, 09:21:11 PM

Title: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Red Warrior on August 04, 2010, 09:21:11 PM
If Holy Unto to the Lord is played by Player A, would a Philosophy card in Player A's hand be selected by the second ability of Holy Unto the Lord?

HOLY UNTO THE LORD: Shuffle all Evil Characters in play into owners’ draw piles. Reveal your hand and discard all revealed evil cards. Cannot be interrupted.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on August 04, 2010, 09:31:48 PM
Very good question. My initial guess is "no", beings I'm fairly certain Philosophy is labeled good in t2. I could very well be wrong though.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: crustpope on August 04, 2010, 09:31:56 PM
No.  Philosophy is a neutral card.  It only becomes good or evil when played.

@ sauce, I have never seen anyone count Philosophy as a good card in T2.  It is always neutral
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Arch Angel on August 04, 2010, 09:47:32 PM
No.  Philosophy is a neutral card.  It only becomes good or evil when played.

@ sauce, I have never seen anyone count Philosophy as a good card in T2.  It is always neutral
I thought it was simultaneously good and evil while in the deck/discard piles (thus why it counts as "neutral" for t2 building, because it counts for both sides).

If it actually is neutral, then the various "Search for a good enhancement" cards shouldn't be able to grab it, and I've always seen it ruled that they could.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: crustpope on August 04, 2010, 09:49:17 PM
You know, you may be right.  I have always looked at it for t2 deck building rules, but it has to be a good card otherwise ET cant get it.  so I change my mind.  Since it is both good and evil, HUTL would target it and force it to be discarded.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: SirNobody on August 04, 2010, 10:14:03 PM
Hey,

At face value Philosophy is Good and Evil.  Yes Holy Unto the Lord would discard it because it is evil.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Professoralstad on August 06, 2010, 09:07:43 AM
You know, you may be right.  I have always looked at it for t2 deck building rules, but it has to be a good card otherwise ET cant get it.  so I change my mind.  Since it is both good and evil, HUTL would target it and force it to be discarded.

FWIW, ET could get it regardless, since his sa says "Bible Icon" (not good enhancement). But I do agree with Tim that it is simultaneously both Good and Evil for deckbuilding and gameplay purposes.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: RTSmaniac on August 06, 2010, 10:28:31 AM
A little twist on words i believe. A bible icon IS a good enhancement. Lets not try and confuse the two. Now if this stops ET from getting philosophy then we need to know now because alot of us use that combo.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Arch Angel on August 06, 2010, 11:22:53 AM
A covenant is also a "Bible icon" card (similar to the wording on Golgotha that uses Skull Icon to allow for evil enh. AND curses), so it's not really a confusion of the two.

Also, it's already been stated that Philosophy counts as both a good and evil enhancement while in Deck/Discard/Hand.

At face value Philosophy is Good and Evil.  Yes Holy Unto the Lord would discard it because it is evil.
... it is simultaneously both Good and Evil for deckbuilding and gameplay purposes.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: fyero on August 06, 2010, 11:24:59 AM
A covenant is also a "Bible icon" card (similar to the wording on Golgotha that uses Skull Icon to allow for evil enh. AND curses), so it's not really a confusion of the two.

Also, it's already been stated that Philosophy counts as both a good and evil enhancement while in Deck/Discard/Hand.

At face value Philosophy is Good and Evil.  Yes Holy Unto the Lord would discard it because it is evil.
... it is simultaneously both Good and Evil for deckbuilding and gameplay purposes.


if u r using this argument then if i defend with zimri can i discard a crimson curse to use his special ability??
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Arch Angel on August 06, 2010, 11:33:47 AM
if u r using this argument then if i defend with zimri can i discard a crimson curse to use his special ability??
No, because Zimri specifies that you must discard a crimson ehancement.

If it says enhancement, it means enhancement. If it says Bible/Skull icon, it means any card with that kind of icon (being it an enhancement, curse, or covenant).
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Professoralstad on August 06, 2010, 03:21:22 PM
if u r using this argument then if i defend with zimri can i discard a crimson curse to use his special ability??
No, because Zimri specifies that you must discard a crimson ehancement.

If it says enhancement, it means enhancement. If it says Bible/Skull icon, it means any card with that kind of icon (being it an enhancement, curse, or covenant).

A Curse from hand CAN be used to satisfy Zimri. This was ruled a long time ago that Curses/Covenants in hand can be targeted by you as either Enh or Artifact from your hand, hand, but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent. So Captured Ark would work to satisfy both Zimri and Uzzah's abilities, and are also able to go into Storehouse.

*POOM*. Yes, that was the sound of your mind being blown.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: YourMathTeacher on August 06, 2010, 03:30:02 PM
This follows suit with the fact that an angel discarded from hand or draw pile can be put into Chamber of Angels. Basically, a card can be discarded as an angel, therefore a curse can be discarded as an enhancement.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Minister Polarius on August 06, 2010, 04:36:35 PM
This follows suit with the fact that an angel discarded from hand or draw pile can be put into Chamber of Angels. Basically, a card can be discarded as an angel, therefore a curse can be discarded as an enhancement.
I don't see how that has any relation.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Arch Angel on August 06, 2010, 05:44:35 PM
A Curse from hand CAN be used to satisfy Zimri. This was ruled a long time ago that Curses/Covenants in hand can be targeted by you as either Enh or Artifact from your hand, hand, but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent. So Captured Ark would work to satisfy both Zimri and Uzzah's abilities, and are also able to go into Storehouse.

*POOM*. Yes, that was the sound of your mind being blown.
Oh really? o.o Wow, learn something new every day. Can enhancement searching abilities grab curses from draw/discard piles, too? For example, can Gabriel discard curses from your opponent's deck?
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Smokey on August 06, 2010, 05:51:51 PM
A Curse from hand CAN be used to satisfy Zimri. This was ruled a long time ago that Curses/Covenants in hand can be targeted by you as either Enh or Artifact from your hand, hand, but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent. So Captured Ark would work to satisfy both Zimri and Uzzah's abilities, and are also able to go into Storehouse.

*POOM*. Yes, that was the sound of your mind being blown.
Oh really? o.o Wow, learn something new every day. Can enhancement searching abilities grab curses from draw/discard piles, too? For example, can Gabriel discard curses from your opponent's deck?

No, because
Quote
but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent.
because you can know if it's an enhancement or art in hand but your opponent can't aparently...
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: TheJaylor on August 06, 2010, 05:54:02 PM
i thought you could but whatever.

now my question is does philosophy count as a neutral card in T2? or does it count as one Evil and one Good?
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Arch Angel on August 06, 2010, 10:59:58 PM
No, because
Quote
but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent.
because you can know if it's an enhancement or art in hand but your opponent can't aparently...
Well, then can you target them? For example, can Micah target your copy of Covenant with David to shuffle it?
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Alex_Olijar on August 06, 2010, 11:02:34 PM
No, because
Quote
but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent.
because you can know if it's an enhancement or art in hand but your opponent can't aparently...
Well, then can you target them? For example, can Micah target your copy of Covenant with David to shuffle it?

Yush, because you choose how to target it.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: crustpope on August 06, 2010, 11:07:13 PM
No, because
Quote
but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent.
because you can know if it's an enhancement or art in hand but your opponent can't aparently...
Well, then can you target them? For example, can Micah target your copy of Covenant with David to shuffle it?

Yush, because you choose how to target it.

It depends upon Micah's wording, if Micah says "Shuffle...green Enhancement" then no, because a coventant is a covenant not an enhancement.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Smokey on August 07, 2010, 10:02:43 AM
No, because
Quote
but as neither (only as a Curse/Evil Card) by your opponent.
because you can know if it's an enhancement or art in hand but your opponent can't aparently...
Well, then can you target them? For example, can Micah target your copy of Covenant with David to shuffle it?

Yush, because you choose how to target it.

It depends upon Micah's wording, if Micah says "Shuffle...green Enhancement" then no, because a coventant is a covenant not an enhancement.

Only you can target it as an enhancement, because zimri can discard a curse from hand.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: YourMathTeacher on August 07, 2010, 10:37:05 AM
Only you can target it as an enhancement, because zimri can discard a curse from hand.

In Zimri's case, you are discarding it as an enhancement, which is akin to playing it as an enhancement.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: Smokey on August 07, 2010, 11:16:06 AM
Only you can target it as an enhancement, because zimri can discard a curse from hand.

In Zimri's case, you are discarding it as an enhancement, which is akin to playing it as an enhancement.

It's not akin to playing it as an enhancement because you aren't playing it at all, it never enters battle and the SA never activates.
How is that any different from Micah shuffling a cov into a draw pile as an enhancement.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: YourMathTeacher on August 07, 2010, 11:59:26 AM
By "akin," I did not mean "the same." The word "use" is often misinterpreted, so I was trying to make a connection that would help to clarify. However, that was not the case.

Apparently my attempts to clarify lately have been futile. I will stop.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: TheJaylor on August 07, 2010, 12:25:05 PM
can someone answer my question please? :-\
now my question is does philosophy count as a neutral card in T2? or does it count as one Evil and one Good?
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: crustpope on August 07, 2010, 12:37:15 PM
can someone answer my question please? :-\
now my question is does philosophy count as a neutral card in T2? or does it count as one Evil and one Good?


Well technicallly it counts as both good and evil..but since it is in the same card it effectively counts itself as neutral.
Title: Re: Holy Unto the Lord & Philosophy
Post by: TheJaylor on August 07, 2010, 12:45:26 PM
can someone answer my question please? :-\
now my question is does philosophy count as a neutral card in T2? or does it count as one Evil and one Good?


Well technicallly it counts as both good and evil..but since it is in the same card it effectively counts itself as neutral.
Thank you!
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