Author Topic: Hm windows of narrow light and... provisions? (Read 12255 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **on:** September 05, 2008, 11:31:51 AM »

Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect your Heroes with no special ability from capture, conversion and removal from the game. • Identifiers: OT, Temple Item • Verse: I Kings 6:4 • Availability: Promotional cards (2008 Local Tournament)

If I set aside Isaiah with provisions when he chooses the blocker is he protected by windows?

If I set aside angel with a secret name (since his "s.a." is an identifier) with gathering and he makes a r.a. is he protected by windows?

The Schaef · « **Reply #1 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:32:55 AM »

Those characters by my reading are considered to have "gained" a special ability, and therefore are no longer protected by Windows.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #2 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:34:25 AM »

I think for the second one that is true, however for provisions as soon as you choose the blocker Isaiah no longer has a gained ability so he is protected.

TimMierz · « **Reply #3 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:36:52 AM »

Cards that have used their abilities still have them. A Jephthah who discarded already still has a SA, and a Provisioned Hero that already chose still has a gained SA.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #4 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:37:47 AM »

Well that stinks

O wells. So much for my evil plots.

TimMierz · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:39:12 AM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on September 05, 2008, 11:37:47 AM

Well that stinks O wells. So much for my evil plots.

I'm sure you have plenty of other plots in store in your dark mansion atop the hill.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #6 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:39:58 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on September 05, 2008, 11:39:12 AM

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on September 05, 2008, 11:37:47 AM
Well that stinks O wells. So much for my evil plots.

I'm sure you have plenty of other plots in store in your dark mansion atop the hill.

Only on that south east corner.

JSB23 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 05, 2008, 01:40:04 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on September 05, 2008, 11:37:47 AM

Well that stinks O wells. So much for my evil plots.

yay

Hedgehogman · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2008, 07:35:12 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on September 05, 2008, 11:32:55 AM

Those characters by my reading are considered to have "gained" a special ability, and therefore are no longer protected by Windows.

I read Windows as protecting characters that have no SA on the card, and I think that's how it should be played. But of course, I'm not official and my opinion means squat, so yeah...

Also, even if Provisions is considered to become a "special ability printed on the card", once you use it it goes away forever, so Windows should still work. There are no "invisible special abilities".

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #9 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:17:55 PM »

Quote from: Hedgehogman on September 05, 2008, 07:35:12 PM

Quote from: The Schaef on September 05, 2008, 11:32:55 AM
Those characters by my reading are considered to have "gained" a special ability, and therefore are no longer protected by Windows.

I read Windows as protecting characters that have no SA on the card, and I think that's how it should be played. But of course, I'm not official and my opinion means squat, so yeah...

Also, even if Provisions is considered to become a "special ability printed on the card", once you use it it goes away forever, so Windows should still work. There are no "invisible special abilities".

. And hey if not I can always say "Screw the rules, I have green hair!"

The Schaef · « **Reply #10 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:28:22 PM »

Quote from: Hedgehogman on September 05, 2008, 07:35:12 PM

Also, even if Provisions is considered to become a "special ability printed on the card", once you use it it goes away forever, so Windows should still work. There are no "invisible special abilities".

Jephthah?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #11 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:35:56 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on September 05, 2008, 11:28:22 PM

Quote from: Hedgehogman on September 05, 2008, 07:35:12 PM
Also, even if Provisions is considered to become a "special ability printed on the card", once you use it it goes away forever, so Windows should still work. There are no "invisible special abilities".

Jephthah?

Set Hero aside for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards, and hero gains the special ability (for hero’s next rescue attempt only) “Holder may choose the Evil Character opponent uses to block.” - REG

So it goes away after the r.a. according to this.

The Schaef · « **Reply #12 on:** September 05, 2008, 11:43:44 PM »

"The first time this Hero enters battle, he may choose the EC opponent uses to block."

Does this special ability go away after it is used, according to that?

Hedgehogman · « **Reply #13 on:** September 06, 2008, 02:16:41 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on September 05, 2008, 11:28:22 PM

Quote from: Hedgehogman on September 05, 2008, 07:35:12 PM
Also, even if Provisions is considered to become a "special ability printed on the card", once you use it it goes away forever, so Windows should still work. There are no "invisible special abilities".

Jephthah?

Jephthah still has his ability printed on the card. Isaiah does not.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #14 on:** September 06, 2008, 02:16:56 AM »

Passover Preparations: (Play As)
Set aside a Hero that has no special ability (or added special ability) for four turns. Upon return enhancements played on Hero may not be interrupted, prevented, or negated.

I think that's the only other card that mentions (not) having an SA, so I'd assume Windows would get a similar play as, so abilities gained in set-aside would stop Windows from protecting a hero.

Besides Provisions (and Lamenting), what else could be a temporary ability? An altered play as (Lamenting for Jephthah's Daughter does the same thing and doesn't have a play as) could eliminate the problem.

Quote from: The Schaef on September 05, 2008, 11:43:44 PM

"The first time this Hero enters battle, he may choose the EC opponent uses to block."

Does this special ability go away after it is used, according to that?

No, but that's a different situation. Provisions play as says the hero only gains it for the next RA, not that it can only be used in the next RA. Temporarily gaining an SA is not the same as having used up a limited use SA.

SirNobody · « **Reply #15 on:** September 06, 2008, 03:00:20 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on September 06, 2008, 02:16:56 AM

Besides Provisions (and Lamenting), what else could be a temporary ability?

Witnesses to Creation comes to mind.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #16 on:** September 06, 2008, 03:05:28 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on September 05, 2008, 11:43:44 PM

"The first time this Hero enters battle, he may choose the EC opponent uses to block."

Does this special ability go away after it is used, according to that?

Although that ability doesn't exist( to the extent of my knowledge) Assuming gained abilities STAY, It would stay.

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** September 06, 2008, 08:53:00 AM »

Quote from: Hedgehogman on September 06, 2008, 02:16:41 AM

Jephthah still has his ability printed on the card. Isaiah does not.

But Isaiah gains the ability. If I poison Jeremiah, and then play Murder on the next turn, am I supposed to assume that his toughness is 7 - not 5 - since 7 is printed on the card?

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on September 06, 2008, 02:16:56 AM

No, but that's a different situation. Provisions play as says the hero only gains it for the next RA, not that it can only be used in the next RA. Temporarily gaining an SA is not the same as having used up a limited use SA.

I disagree. A Play As is a rewording of the original ability without changing its function. Provisions does not mention that the gaining of the ability is temporary and then ceases to exist, it only specifies the time that the ability must trigger. Therefore, this card is like Jephthah, once used, it expires, but that does not mean it just magically vanishes and ceases to have ever existed. That only happens when the card is reset to face value.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2008, 06:43:05 PM »

So you are planning to change the play as to "The first time this Hero enters battle, he may choose the EC opponent uses to block."?

The Schaef · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2008, 06:54:26 PM »

I never said I was. I offered that ability as a counterexample.

lightningninja · « **Reply #20 on:** September 06, 2008, 09:51:59 PM »

I was told by Bryon that for instance, if a character loses his ability, such as the punisher lost soul, then he still is not protected by windows of narrow light, or anything else, because those cards treat heroes as if in face value. I would think, that in the same way, you cannot use provisions and all of a sudden gain a sa.

The Schaef · « **Reply #21 on:** September 06, 2008, 10:11:28 PM »

Negating a special ability is not "losing" it or taking it away. It only means it has no effect.

If anything, Bryon's ruling, while I think the reasoning is a bit dodgy, only proves my point. If a card has a special ability, even if it's negated, even if it's expired, it still HAS that special ability.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #22 on:** September 06, 2008, 10:13:52 PM »

There is a difference between using a s.a. next battle only and a "once per game" s.a. A once per game s.a. can be used any r.a. A next r.a. one is even if you don't USE IT it is gone.

The Schaef · « **Reply #23 on:** September 06, 2008, 10:23:09 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on September 06, 2008, 10:13:52 PM

A next r.a. one is even if you don't USE IT it is gone.

Even if it's printed on the card?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #24 on:** September 06, 2008, 10:28:01 PM »

gone even* If its printed on the card I would say it stays due to its on the card and due to my knowlage this is all hypothetical.

SirNobody · « **Reply #25 on:** September 07, 2008, 03:21:22 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on September 06, 2008, 06:43:05 PM

So you are planning to change the play as to "The first time this Hero enters battle, he may choose the EC opponent uses to block."?

The play as for provisions will very likely be changed in a future release of the REG to something allong the lines of, "Set a Hero aside for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards and hero gains the ability 'Holder may choose the Evil Character opponent uses to block Hero's first rescue attempt after returning from set-aside.'"

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

The Schaef · « **Reply #26 on:** September 07, 2008, 08:26:21 AM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on September 06, 2008, 10:28:01 PM

gone even* If its printed on the card I would say it stays due to its on the card and due to my knowlage this is all hypothetical.

If printed abilities that have been wasted or used up stay, then gained abilities that have been wasted or used up stay. You're trying to apply two different kinds of logic here, the card having the ability by gaining it, then the card losing the ability by not having it printed. If the printed text was the keystone, then a provisioned ability-less Hero would ALWAYS be protected by Windows. Having the ability is the keystone, as Bryon and I have each stated, and so the Provisioned Hero which has gained this ability has it regardless of whether it used it or not, just like any regular printed ability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #27 on:** September 07, 2008, 11:59:11 AM »

I would agree that any gained or used SA counts as the character having a SA, therefore would not be protected by Windows. Gained abilities are, in effect, like "stamping" an ability onto the character's card. Even when the ability is used, the "stamp" still remains, much like the printed version. Windows is worded in such a way that it would only protect characters that have never had an ability printed or "stamped" on it.

I think we need to get past the technicalities that we want to work, and just stick to the basics. Windows of Narrow Light makes an otherwise non-special character special. Any other methods of making a character special disqualify the use of Windows, since the character was already made special.

At least that's how I see it.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #28 on:** September 07, 2008, 12:06:47 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 07, 2008, 11:59:11 AM

I think we need to get past the technicalities that we want to work, and just stick to the basics.

But, this is how some of the best combos are created... by pushing the rules to their limits and finding what works.

At least that's how I see it.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #29 on:** September 07, 2008, 12:38:38 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on September 07, 2008, 12:06:47 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 07, 2008, 11:59:11 AM
I think we need to get past the technicalities that we want to work, and just stick to the basics.

But, this is how some of the best combos are created... by pushing the rules to their limits and finding what works.

At least that's how I see it.

true dat, but I do think schaef is right on this point.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #30 on:** September 07, 2008, 03:26:52 PM »

Yeah it makes alot more sense the way he described it. The play as just messed with me head.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #31 on:** September 07, 2008, 04:16:17 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on September 07, 2008, 12:06:47 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 07, 2008, 11:59:11 AM
I think we need to get past the technicalities that we want to work, and just stick to the basics.

But, this is how some of the best combos are created... by pushing the rules to their limits and finding what works.

At least that's how I see it.

Thanks for taking my words out of context. I don't mind creativity and masterful combos, just not when they are changing established rules. Special Abilities are clearly defined. Some are ongoing, some are instant, some are limited use, and some are gained. Windows of Narrow Light is worded to protect characters that have none of these.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #32 on:** September 07, 2008, 04:44:23 PM »

Lol, didn't mean to do that.

I agree with you there though... we shouldn't try and change the rules to make combos work. However, the way you worded it coulda been interpreted several ways, as seen already.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 07, 2008, 07:55:30 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 07, 2008, 04:16:17 PM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on September 07, 2008, 12:06:47 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 07, 2008, 11:59:11 AM
I think we need to get past the technicalities that we want to work, and just stick to the basics.

But, this is how some of the best combos are created... by pushing the rules to their limits and finding what works.

At least that's how I see it.

Thanks for taking my words out of context.

No need to be sarcastic. It isn't a big deal.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #34 on:** September 07, 2008, 08:10:24 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on September 07, 2008, 07:55:30 PM

No need to be sarcastic. It isn't a big deal.

You have no idea how ironic it is for you to be saying that.

News:

Author Topic: Hm windows of narrow light and... provisions? (Read 12255 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

TheHobbit13