Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: stefferweffer on May 05, 2010, 07:01:29 PM
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Can I discard Saul/Paul from my hand so I can play Healing of Naaman on him? I don't think so, but thought I should ask.
Thanks.
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As a longtime heroless player, I believe that the answer is yes.
EDIT: See Tim Maly's (Sir Nobody) first response to this thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15538.0).
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I would still say that this is contrary to what the rulebook clearly states. The Discard Phase ends with the discarding of cards from hand. Any other cards would have to be played before you discard from hand.
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Ok then, what about Site discard LS, or any other ability that forces me to choose a card from hand and discard it? Could I do this at that time?
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Ok then, what about Site discard LS, or any other ability that forces me to choose a card from hand and discard it? Could I do this at that time?
Anyone? Does the above work?
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Yes. You can play Healing of Namaan on a Saul that you discard from hand by a special ability.
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The only reason you can't heal Saul (or any character) when they are discarded at the end of the turn discard is because there is not time to play a healing enhancement between the discard and your opponents turn
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Thats the thing, healing enh can be played out of battle, that includes the d/c phase because until you say "Your turn" your turn has not ended.
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You can play healing enhancements in the Discard Phase, but not after you discard down to 8 cards. The rulebook specifies that all the things you want to do in the Discard Phase must be done before the "discard down." I know that my interpretation is not likely to be a concern to anyone, but the rulebook seems very clear to me that you cannot heal a hero that you discarded during the "discard down" portion of the Discard Phase. You can only heal heroes discarded prior to the "discard down."
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The year book is also outdated though. I'm not saying you aren't right, I'm saying we need an official here.
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My yearbook is outdated? You mean the Pittsburgh Pirates are no longer the best team in baseball??
We are fam-i-leeeeee......
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How did I manage that? Rulebook*
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My yearbook is outdated? You mean the Pittsburgh Pirates are no longer the best team in baseball??
We are fam-i-leeeeee......
They're second only to the Brewers, who beat them 20-0 a few weeks ago. :)
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If your at 9 cards in hand after discarding Saul, could you play Healing of Naaman?
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If your at 9 cards in hand after discarding Saul, could you play Healing of Naaman?
Is this a general question, or directed at me? I would of course say "No." Once you start "discarding down" you have signaled that you will not be playing any cards. If you had cards to play, you would have had to play them before you "discard down."
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Other card games i play *cough magic cough* do not end the turn until the player states that they end the turn. then the opponent can still do things in response to the turn ending...
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in the rulebook the actions that may be performed are listed. AFTER the actions it states "After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less." Therefore once you are reducing your hand to eight or less, the opportunity to heal has passed.
in Him
Chris
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You can play healing enhancements in the Discard Phase, but not after you discard down to 8 cards. The rulebook specifies that all the things you want to do in the Discard Phase must be done before the "discard down."
According to a straight reading of the rulebook, YMT is correct. However, according to a straight reading of the rulebook, you can only discard cards from your hand at the end of your turn to get down to 8 cards. However, everyone has been playing for a long time that you can discard down to less than 8 cards if you want to (ie. clearing hand for Zebulun, discarding an ec to put Hormah on the bottom, etc.).
Therefore, either the rulebook section on the discard phase at the end of your turn is out of date and no longer authoritative (my vote), or everyone has been playing wrong.
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Since when can you discard down to less than 8 cards. I've never played that way. If this is true, Hormah and Zebulen are indeed a lot more powerful.
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You've always been able to do that as far as I know RC.
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I'm not sure what you are referring to... This is from the rulebook (accessed through the REG):
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile.
This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.
Clearly, you can discard down to less than 8 cards. Am I missing something? I looked in the hard copy 10th anniversary rulebook, and it says the same thing.
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Prof Underwood's point is that many people have been discarding cards from their hands before the end of the discard phase.
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Really? Interesting... I haven't played that way since the rulebook was clear that discarding was last, so I hadn't realized people did otherwise!
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Prof Underwood's point is that many people have been discarding cards from their hands before the end of the discard phase.
I have never heard of this, and I know it has been ruled oppositely in every tournament I have attended where the question has been asked.
This was asked about back when the Speed Bump lost soul was introduced with Priests, and the ruling then was that you could NOT choose to discard cards to get under the 11 card limit. Once you start discarding cards of your own volition, you forfeit your right to rescue; discarding places you in the discard phase.
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Can you heal a FBTN Evil character with torment? or does the effect get negated? or like his saul/paul question if i have Kot in play and some one discards my Saul can i play torment on KoT?
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Prof Underwood's point is that many people have been discarding cards from their hands before the end of the discard phase.
No, that is actually not my point, and that is clearly illegal.
I'm not sure what you are referring to...
What I'm talking about is that it says that "if you have more than 8 cards" you get to discard. However, if you have 8 or less cards in your hand already, then you "should announce that you are finished.". In other words, if I have 8 cards in my hand, then I can't choose to discard any of them.
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So your basic premise is to disregard what the rulebook says because you find what you see as a contradiction of how the game is played in some places, therefore you can disregard any rule in the rulebook as long as that is how the game has been played in some places?
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Prof Underwood's point is that many people have been discarding cards from their hands before the end of the discard phase.
No, that is actually not my point, and that is clearly illegal.
Whew! What a relief.
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What I'm talking about is that it says that "if you have more than 8 cards" you get to discard. However, if you have 8 or less cards in your hand already, then you "should announce that you are finished.". In other words, if I have 8 cards in my hand, then I can't choose to discard any of them.
Saying that you can't discard further the instant that you reach 8 or less is taking that one line of the rulebook out of context with the other statements it makes. The paragraph from the rulbook starts with the statement "After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less." This statement clearly allows you to discard to less than eight since it uses the word "OR". You must reduce to eight OR you must reduce to less. Since you can pick "less" and to "reduce" you have to discard a card, then it is allowed. The two sentences after that explain the two types of actions that you can take to accomplish the first sentence. The first of those may be poorly ordered, but adds that you should announce you are finished when you have eight or fewer. It doesn't say that you should announce you are finished AS SOON AS you have eight or fewer; just that WHEN you announce it you should have eight or fewer. If you take it to mean "as soon as" then it would contradict the first sentence of the paragraph. The last sentence explains the technique for reducing to eight or fewer, and re-iterates that it needs to be done when you have more than eight (but doesn't address when you already have eight or fewer, so therefore does not contradict the first sentence).
So I think it is clear that you can discard to any number of cards that is eight or less. However, this still doesn't allow you to play a healing enhancement once you choose to start discarding.
Mike
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Saying that you can't discard further the instant that you reach 8 or less is taking that one line of the rulebook out of context with the other statements it makes. The paragraph from the rulbook starts with the statement "After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less." This statement clearly allows you to discard to less than eight since it uses the word "OR".
OK, you want to talk to me about context, let's actually look at the context. The context was left out of the original quotation of the rulebook in this thread, and so I can understand why you would be confused. I had just looked at the rulebook, and therefore understood the context and stated the correct interpretation of it. Since you then called me out on it, I will provide the context so that you can more fully understand this issue.
You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile.
This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.
The context is that you can do a number of things at the end of your turn (see the bullets above). However, NONE of those options are to discard cards from your hand. Then after you have done all of those options that you want to, the very last part of your turn is to get down to 8 or less cards. It tells you how to do that with 2 "if" statements. "If" you have 8 or less cards, then you announce you are done. "If" you have more than 8 cards, then you discard. There are only 2 options listed. Neither of those includes the common practice of having 8 or fewer cards and still discarding more, just because we want to.
That is the full context. A strict reading of this section says that you can NOT discard from your hand if you have 8 or fewer cards. Either the rulebook is wrong, or everyone else (except YMT) is wrong :)
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Then why is the word fewer used in the first and last statements? To me a strict interpretation of this says that If I have 8 cards (or less) in my hand at the end of my turn I can't discard. HOWEVER if I have 9 cards I could discard down to One.
How much sense does that make?
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Then why is the word fewer used in the first and last statements? To me a strict interpretation of this says that If I have 8 cards (or less) in my hand at the end of my turn I can't discard. HOWEVER if I have 9 cards I could discard down to One.
How much sense does that make?
I agree completely. If you have 8 or less, then you can't discard. If you have 9 or more, you can discard as many as you like. I also agree that this does NOT make any sense, which is why I made my initial statement that the rulebook on this section is out of date.
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What you are trying to do is manipulate the interpretation of the rest of the last paragraph so that a "literal" translation would contradict what is known. You then try to use that supposed contradiction to invalidate a "literal" translation of the first sentence in that last paragraph. Semantic manipulation is really not your style.
The irony is that if anyone tried to do the same trick with "literal" translations of Bible passages, you would be the first one to jump on the boards and give them a Holy Hand Chop to the throat.
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What you are trying to do is manipulate the interpretation of the rest of the last paragraph so that a "literal" translation would contradict what is known. You then try to use that supposed contradiction to invalidate a "literal" translation of the first sentence in that last paragraph. Semantic manipulation is really not your style.
I'm not 100% sure I get what you're saying here, but I really do think that the two "if" statements are clarifying how to get your hand down to 8 or less cards. I'm not trying to play semantics here. I really think that the rulebook is clearly saying that you can't discard from your hand unless you have more than 8 cards in it.
The irony is that if anyone tried to do the same trick with "literal" translations of Bible passages, you would be the first one to jump on the boards and give them a Holy Hand Chop to the throat.
First of all, I really laughed out loud when I read this. Secondly, you are right that I would be the first one to Holy Hand Chop someone who went against the literal interpretation of the Bible and called it outdated, just because everyone was doing things differently now. Thirdly, I don't hold the Redemption rulebook anywhere near the level of authority as the Bible, and it already has been declared out of date in several other sections. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=26.msg35#msg35)
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First of all, I really laughed out loud when I read this.
But the real is question is whether that is enough to make your Favorite Quotes thread.
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Prof. Underwood, please re-read this part of the rulebook entry you posted above:
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile.
Note what I put in bold, and note that should =/= must. The use of 'should' seems to have been intended to be interpreted as 'you should end your turn, but if you wanna go crazy discarding your hand, knock yourself out'.
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Note what I put in bold, and note that should =/= must. The use of 'should' seems to have been intended to be interpreted as 'you should end your turn, but if you wanna go crazy discarding your hand, knock yourself out'.
I'm all for going crazy and knocking yourself out on occasion. However the "should" isn't quite that generous. If the rulebooks said, "you CAN end your turn" or "you MAY end your turn", then maybe there would be grounds to argue that you could also choose to discard (although that option is never given to someone with 8 or less cards).
However, "should" means that something is the "right thing to do". It means that there is a "moral imperative". And in this case (both being a rulebook and being a Christian card game), that means that there really is no choice there. If you have 8 or less cards, then the right thing to do is to end your turn. To do otherwise is breaking the rules (which are outdated as has been previously mentioned).
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First, you need to know that the rulebook was written with a lot of redundancy, in an effort to make things more clear. Sometimes, the opposite effect is achieved.
You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile. (redundant. Already covered by the first sentence)
This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.
To recap:
First, perform as many bullet actions as often as you choose
Second, reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less
Third, announce that you are finished
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First, you need to know that the rulebook was written with a lot of redundancy, in an effort to make things more clear. Sometimes, the opposite effect is achieved.
You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile. (redundant. Already covered by the first sentence)
This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.
To recap:
First, perform as many bullet actions as often as you choose
Second, reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less
Third, announce that you are finished
Just to be more clear, could we take out even a little bit more of the redundancy like listed above?
Also, shouldn't "Heal a character that was discarded during the turn." be added as another one of the bullet points?
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Good suggestion, Mark.
You may perform as many of these actions as often as you choose:
• Place a character (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.
• Place an artifact face down into your artifact pile.
• Place a site into your territory.
• Set aside a character.
• Heal a character.
• Place a weapon-class enhancement on a warrior-class character in your territory.
• Place a fortress on the table. At this time its special ability becomes active.
After you have completed all the actions you choose, you must reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less. If you have eight or fewer cards in your hand, Then you should announce that you are finished. If you have more than eight cards in your hand, then you should reduce the cards in your hand down to eight or fewer by discarding cards from your hand face up on the top of your discard pile. (redundant. Already covered by the first sentence)
This ends your turn. Play now passes to the left.
To recap:
First, perform as many bullet actions as often as you choose
Second, reduce the cards in your hand to eight or less
Third, announce that you are finished
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So, its official, you can't D/c SP then heal?
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that is correct, heal cards must be played before you discard your hand down at the end of your turn
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Maybe we'll get a new card that will let you discard Saul/Paul from your hand during the prep phase... ::)
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Maybe we'll get a new card that will let you discard Saul/Paul from your hand during the prep phase... ::)
Yeah, now I gotta figure that out. I mean it they use a hand d/c ls or genesis you are fine but man...As if heroless needed more nerfing.
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Use Intent to Kill. :)
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Splash Philly Outpost as a discard outlet